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4 ways to utilize your neighbor City State

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by glory7, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. glory7

    glory7 King

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    * This post is based on deity level play, but most of them can be applied for other difficulty levels also.

    * Some of them could sound like "exploits". I would not argue what is okay and what is not - a reader may decide. All I can say is these tactics are not using bugs. I sometimes self-ban some of these to make my games more interesting and challenging.

    I. Worker(s) steal

    As AIs start with 2 settlers at the deity level, it is actually easier to steal worker(s) from other civs, compared to the immortal level. While I almost always steal given a chance, usually it is not easy to get multiple workers and in rare cases, it's difficult to get a single worker from other civs. Unless you steal 3+ workers, it is usually better to get workers from CS (City State). By t50 (standard), for a usual pangea game, I get one worker from other civ and 2-3 from a CS.

    There are other threads about how to steal multiple workers from a CS, so I keep it short. In short, you need to wait a lux/resource tile that the first CS worker was trying to improve, steal the first one, and wait 2 tiles away from that tile and the border.

    Make sure that your unit is not on the hill (it is visible if it is on the hill). In many cases, you need to let one of your scout to wait there so that you can move over hill/forest to catch 2nd, 3rd, and so on. Moreover, you should be able to expect how the CS border would expand so that you make sure that you can wait 2 tiles away after border expansions, if possible. You can find lots of examples when you read deity challenge thread/gotm.

    II. XP farming and getting (free) Great General

    While there are not that many early wars in BNW, you still need some archers to defend against barbs, do barb quests, and defend against other civs if necessary. If you have units that are idle, send them to the CS that you have stolen workers, and stack XPs. Remember that attacking a city gives 3XP, while attacking units gives 2XP. Hence, you can stack XPs much faster and you can get logistics/range promotion much earlier than usual. Moreover, you can get great general this way.

    If you are going to do some war, these certainly helps, and even if you are not going to, it will give you a free GG to get additional land if needed and help to prevent wars by having more veterans.

    One good example is a recent deity challenge:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=528421

    Take a look at my writeup and you can see that with Zulu UA, you can get logistics and range promotion archer (yes, not even CB...) only with CS attacking. When you upgrade this unit to Xbow, it just kills everything.

    III. CS "shield"

    This tactic is not applicable (not required) in most cases, but if you have a Zulu/Aztec/Mongols/Huns/Assyrians as your neighbor, this could be helpful. You know that these aggressive guys will attack someone early. If they don't attack someone else and you cannot bribe them to DoW others, they are going to attack you and you are in trouble - even if you can defend, it will waste units and turns that you need to build science/gold/culture buildings.

    In that case, bribe them to attack CS, and cover the tiles with your units so that AI cannot "last hit" to capture. City state will kill AI units one by one, and you can basically reduce his troops. One nice example of this is Deity Challenge 33: France Pangea culture game. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=508392&highlight=deity+challenge&page=2

    IV. "Free" ally CS, especially for domination games

    The irony is that you steal say 3-4 workers from this CS, use it as a boot-camp to stack XPs, and you can ally this CS for free later!

    When you DoW (or CS does), your relationship goes to -60, but it goes to zero for each turn as usual - you just cannot observe it and it shows -60 during the war. So for example, if you make peace after 60 turns, it will show you zero influence.

    During the war, workers need to build roads and scout. In many cases, you even have to use workers to lure AI units out (let them capture, you kill it and get it back). By using workers as your 'front units', you can prevent AI attacks and cut their units one by one with your range units. Moreover, when they capture and you re-capture it, in many cases that worker was from the CS and it asks you to keep or return. Usually at this stage, you have more than enough workers (you are capturing other civs' workers) so just return them for free influence (45 iirc). For most of my domination games, I get 100+ free influence from just returning workers to their hometown after slavery.

    V. Bonus: Venice strategy

    This one works well for early games. As AIs techs a lot faster than a player at the beginning, you can see that city states got CB/swordsman/pikeman/knights where you are like 15 or more turns from the necessary techs.

    If you want to take some caps, look for city states nearby. Military states are better as they tend to have more units and upgrade existing units asap. city states with iron/horse are better as they can upgrade warrior/swordsman/horseman. I will explain the strategy in terms of CB rush, for simplicity.

    Build some archers. When you find a target and proper CS nearby, gift your archers to that CS - and send your UU (protect with say 2 archers) to that CS. Gifting takes 3 turns so you can send units fairly easily. you are moving with only 2-3 units so AIs won't ask you whether you are going to attack them or not.

    CS will upgrade archers to CBs when they receive archers. They tend to have spears/swordsman/horseman too. You don't have to pay for upgrade costs, maintenance costs, moving times, etc. Just get that CS with your merchant! all of a sudden, you have lots or army near your target - taking it would be a piece of cake. Moreover, this one can be done several times.
     
  2. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    What about bullying?

    You have a big army but not big enough to demand tribute. You declare war and kill all their troops. Then you make peace and demand tribute.

    Not sure how it works, but have been meaning to try it.
     
  3. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    on II. Farming CS for XP - might be obvious to you since you've done it so many times - If you send archer(s) alone in range of the city attack to take your 3XP shoots - the city will shoot back (yay more XP) but your archer will have to evacuate or die in 2/3 turns max .. You're probably using a decoy (fortified injured melee unit to soak up city attacks - can a warrior do it - do you you use spear / rotate multiple spear decoys ?) .. Even with Alexander's full heal in hostile CS territory and hoplite extra strength I don't recall them lasting all that long to city attacks (maybe when the CS is injured it starts to do less damage ?) .. Persian immortals and celt pictish warriors also should be superiour decoys ..

    Also while farming XP from CS how are you stealing workers (they tend to keep it inside the city when hostile units are in range in my experience)

    --------
    Not saying this doesn't work (100% that it can be done) - just that I still don't completely get how it can be done :) (perhaps a short video exemplification ?) ..
     
  4. glory7

    glory7 King

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    I skipped normal bullying as it is obvious. For the case you mentioned, I seldom (if never) DoW CS for 2nd time (which would give permanent penalty) and I don't think it's worth to kill their units and get like 150 gold - I prefer to use that firepower to take other civs' cities or kill their units.

    And I don't think you can demand tribute if your relationship is pretty bad (more than -20 or something..)
     
  5. glory7

    glory7 King

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    hm, as you mentioned, you can use decoy (like 1-2 spear), or you can rotate several archers. I did it in the recent zulu game too - main goal is to get 2 range or logistics archers asap.

    For workers, when you start XP farming, by then you should have enough workers either by getting them from others or producing them by yourself (pyramid, citizenship, rush-buying, hard-building, etc.)

    For standard speed deity games, you can get the first worker at t19-t25, and second one about 10-12 turns later. Usually these two are enough, and if you need the 3rd one, catching the 3rd one is t40-50 so you can start XP farming by then.
     
  6. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    This is slightly off topic, but I looked at some of your recent screen shots. Do you mostly spam units/settlers and buy more units to start off most of your aggressive games?
     
  7. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    When should you switch archers to combosites. At what combat strenght of CS is archer one shotted by CS?
    1) CS+archer
    2) CS + CB
    3) CS + CB + GALLEAS

    What about random spear/pike spawned by CS? Do you mainly bully city states with river to prevent suprise attack. By the way AI(human too) can shoot twice with archers from city. If city has archer and new archer is build in city they both will shoot you and other of them is teleported 1 tile. Lost several units this way.
     
  8. glory7

    glory7 King

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    I seldom rush buy units. For liberty domination games (I think you refer to this ones), I hard build 1-2 settler after getting the free settler policy (I never buy settler for this case) and hard build all my units - use golds to upgrades and CS buying only. I feel that even without CS buying, I don't have enough gold to upgrade say 5-6 archers to CBs, 8-10 CBs to Xbows, and 3-5 horseman to knights.

    Since CB rush is not as good as before (GnK days...), I usually start taking many cities after getting Xbows. So I build infra (monument, granary, and barracks if UB, and markets /circus/Colosseum if needed) and build (spam?) units.
     
  9. glory7

    glory7 King

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    This is a good point - I admit that I don't really know. I haven't been to the case 3 (I usually finish XP farming before that timing and go for real war). For 1 and 2, unless it is 20+ city and your unit is on flat ground/marsh, it's fine.

    random spear/pike is a real issue. I usually use 1-2 spears to make ZOC (and to take damage) so that they cannot attack archers directly.
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I see. Some day I might try that. Thanks.

    So many games are pangea, but if they are not and you need more ships, then you could look to Maritime States who are allied with your rival to provide you with many prizes once you have Privateers.

    If Venice is in game, then barbs will pillage his routes because he sucks at protecting them. This will make more barb ships that you can take as prizes. This is something I want to try soon.
     
  11. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Maybe that's just me and my luck, but I literally have none since BNW. Got 1 (one) battleship and 1 (one) frigate through privateer attacks (I don't keep track of when they've been nerfed, I just know that happened a long time ago). Besides, getting your own ships with double promo is probably still better than hunting damaged enemy ships with no promos. The latter can be used as cannon fodder though.
     
  12. JeSuisNapoleon

    JeSuisNapoleon Prince

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    The chances of capturing a ship are seen on the screen before you attack if you hover over the unit you are targeting. I think Privateer vs Battleship is probably 30% or less for capturing.

    The chances of capturing a Battleship with a Privateer are much smaller than capturing say, a caravel. This makes sense because it must be hard for a Renaissance era unit to take control of a modern unit.
     
  13. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    and that's why you should upgrade said privateer to a destroyer before attempting to capture modern era (naval) units
     
  14. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    I know. :) My point was that capturing enemy ships with privateers used to be The thing when G&K was released, but they got nerfed a long time ago and nowadays you can't really obtain a whole navy this way.
     
  15. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    If you DOW CS immediately (turn 5-10etc) and keep units visible to them will they still build couple of workers or switch to military?
     
  16. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    Nice thread.

    2 things come to my mind:

    First of all i often immediately return to peace after getting a worker from a cs because i don't have finished to scout around. Below deity it can be counter productive to stay around and wait for a worker(that can take ages to make another worker to appear). I remember some games where i stayed at war with a cs for several turns to just deteriorate relationships with other AIs(because you are at war with CS).

    Some AIs don't like seeing you at war with CS for...no reason. In mp game it's not so bad of course but again you might want to explore more instead of turning around the cs. I largely prefer to steal workers from AIs. It tends to hurt civs a lot more.

    I don't know how i can have enough time to get free XP from a cs especially in mp game. Quick speed makes things...well...too quick!(barbs, humans...need to check them too!). But i can see this strategy somewhat useful if i start isolated and have nothing to do with that cs.

    The other thing is:

    Please, use the ''multi'' button to respond to multiple responses in the same post instead of separately from multiple posts :)

    ------------------------------

    I do like the Venice strategy though. I didn't play Venice enough to realize that by myself so thanks i will remember that trick if i need it :goodjob:
     
  17. Dehli

    Dehli Chieftain

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    Glory after reading some of your stuff I realize I was blind and now I see. 've been a civ junky for too long to not know some of the stuff I don't know. Worker stealing? Didn't know that was a thing until a couple days ago. bootcamps had never heard of but I get the feeling a lot of people don't know the meaning. My love of civ has been revitalized.
     
  18. apollociv

    apollociv Chieftain

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    Wow, you just blew my mind. As an aspiring deity player, this will really help me. Thanks!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    WOW! Ok Tabarnak... I respect your play very much. I have played you a few times over MP with a different screen name than this one on here. Those games were public pick up games and we really never got to get it going since alot of players quit before turn 60. I really respect your LPs and SP games and Guides that I have read on this site over time. However your relationship with AI will not have a problem if you insta DOW CS before meeting AI and keep in Perma War with CS.

    My Civ V knowledge is mostly from LPs, Strategy Guides and plain good old hours of experience. I played this game for the first year or so when it first came out on a free version (Argh Mate! There be Pirates in these waters!) so you do not see all those hours on steam for me.

    I have to disagree with your comment:

    "But i can see this strategy somewhat useful if i start isolated and have nothing to do with that cs."

    MP is a different animal but I can see how to put this for good use on MP as well, Im just not sure how good it would work against advanced players. Most of my MP games I have 4-5 workers from CS's because alot of people on MP do not build 2-3 Scouts first. If you play MP pick up games as I do, you know you have alot of games where people quit before things get going. You also know if you play these games the other players for the most part are very docile and almost any strategy will allow you to roll them! Many 6 Player FFA games you will show up with 8-10 troops and knock on your opponents door only to find nobody home! Just take a look at one of Tabarnaks Public MP games where he played the Aztecs (Game #4) and used his 2 city NC approach and waited for Freedom/Vol Army to get the war going and smashed the (AI) oops I mean other players. Ofcourse playing NQ games will change this.

    (Don't feel so bad Dehli! Im in the same boat as you playing Civ games over 10yrs without this knowledge!)

    Back to Tarb's Comment... I have been messing about with Glory_7s CS tactics now non stop for the last 2 days. I have had many times where I stop the "bootcamp" and get the 100 or so gold from them being afraid. I have had many times where it was not an option. However this tactic is by far (IMO) better than just stealing 1 worker and making peace for Domination games. Perhaps even better if you plan to play peaceful for the free GG. Did you see that you get a Free CS ally after all the bootcamping and use of the workers going back to the CS? I haven't tried that yet. The Liberty/Warmonger/CS Bootcamp Tactic is pretty powerful (IMO). If you finish Liberty and use the GS for Machinery it is amazing. The combo of Logistic/Range Promo on your XBs is by far better than just stealing 1 worker. Anyway just my thoughts and I really like this post as well...Nice Job Glory_7! We all have different styles and I can understand how this might not work for everyone but if you try it and get the hang of it I believe you will have a Warmonger game that cannot be beat in SP games.

    Cromagnus Atilla Guide and Glory_7 CS Mix: I have even messed about with these two strategies mixing them. I like the way it works for my own personal game. However I believe it is better to follow one or the other to have a stronger Warmonger game.

    Imm Vs. Deity: Im not sure it would really matter on Imm since you basically can do whatever you like to have a strong game and win vs. Deity play. That being said... If you use this "Bootcamp" strategy on Imm Pangea Map you will blitz the AI like never before (IMO)!

    Edit: This strategy is more based around SP rather than MP. I agree with you that MP (quick speed) is a completely differnt game. You don't see this in MP games or LPs because of time factor yes. Also alot of NQ players do not like to use such tactics. However I believe this could be useful in MP games. Like you say, nobody has shown it for MP so the jury is still out. I was saying I could see some use for it, not that it is the way to go for MP games. However I do see it being very strong in my SP games which is what this strategy suggests. You cannot deny that Glory7 uses this strategy to achieve a very fast Domination win on SP. Also remeber this strategy is not just a CS bootcamp. If you have one close by, by all means use it. However it is also used on the AIs city. Instead of capturing that city or Cap right away you XP your CBs or XBs till you have 2 with these promos.

    NQ games Vs. Public Pick Up Games: We cannot even compare these two really. The players that play NQ games are way ahead of just anyone who is playing a public game. I will steal any nearby civs worker if unprotected in an MP game and in public games this can crash the game on turn 20! NQ games tend to be more of a group thing which is what NQ is. I am a member myself and have played quite a few of them. They tend to play for a slow build and very peaceful till turns 100-150. However I have seen early rushes in NQ MP games too... just not as often. (IMHO) These games are more about Diplo. It is real life Diplo in these games and I have seen many great wins by way of Diplo in NQ MP games. Even on some MP LPs on youtube you can see some very crafty manipulation of players. Players have built up friendships over time and they tend not to kill each other as much as someone who they do not know. Heck, even if they do not know you they are very good in the chat box to get things they want to have the edge. I've actually played it both ways in NQ and Public games. Sometimes I just all out warmonger and sometimes I sit back and chat with everyone and watch them do my bidding. Sometimes it feels like collusion but you can do nothing about this really. They have tried to block this with some rules like: You are not allowed to vote for another player as WL and such. However, you cannot stop the heavy edge to the MP Diplo game (IMO). For example... some games, mostly in public I have seen triple DOWs!! I do not believe any player can stop a 3v1 attack!

    However I cannot deny that you are way ahead of me in knowledge of this game so all of my points may not be valid! Last question if you read this... why did you change your pic? Is it because Hockey season is over? I miss the pic of the Habs already.

    Spoiler :
    I rather stay anonymous :)
     
  20. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    @Fluphen: I don't say that this strategy is bad, i'm just saying that the opportunity to do it in mp games is low because of quick speed. I'm not talking about stealing multiple workers, even if in my mp games i almost always make peace right away. But that's certainly something i need to work on. I need to discover more land around and the other cities has so much to do before making units(unless you rushing someone).

    In the other hand, i didn't see a single youtube mp game where a guy had some time to make XP from a cs. It's a high risk overall because of bad factors.

    Quick speed is very a huge hit for this kind of strategy, especially at immortal level(NQ). Also, barbs can spawn and move on same turn in mp game, making things even more difficult.

    Even in NQ games players tend to play very peaceful for a long period of time. Not really different than public excepted overall tech/prod pace. Why building units if your opponent doesn't do it? ;)

    I'm a warmonger at heart. In my last NQ game NQ Fear_This said that it was his best game since a year because i was very aggressive at some point and didn't care for diplo at all :lol: And he's an admin who play very often too. :)

    Put Zulus, some cs around you, some close neighbors, a speed high enough to let you have time to reach enough XP and maybe you will have the perfect recipe for a huge XP farm exotic touring :p

    Spoiler :
    What were your names whe we played btw?


    Nah...go for CB rush and kill them. You don't have time for this. Only if you wait for Xbows.
     

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