[Vote] (5-80) Change Drill Line Bonuses

[pineappledan]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented.

You can vote for both options, which is equivalent to saying "I'm fine either way", but adds to the required quorum of 25 votes in favor.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 80

Current Drill line bonuses per level:

+10% Combat Strength​

+25% when attacking cities​

City assault bonuses:

Requires drill II/ Shock III/Buffalo Loins​

+33% damage reduction vs cities​

+33% when attacking cities​

Total bonuses if all 4 promotions are taken:

+30% CS​

+108% when attacking cities​

+33% damage reduction vs cities​

Proposal:
Drill line (per level):

+10% Combat Strength​

+15% damage reduction vs cities​

City Assault:
Renamed to Forlorn Hope

Requires drill II/Buffalo Loins​

Remove access via the Shock line​

-10% Combat Strength​

+100% when attacking cities​

Total bonuses if all 4 drill + Forlorn Hope promotions are taken:

+20% CS​

+100% when attacking cities​

+45% damage reduction vs cities​

Rationale:
Melee/Gun units spend too much time standing around waiting to get hit on sieges. Without the damage reduction from City Assault, hitting cities with melee results in too much return damage, even with full drill. 1 hit might force a melee unit to retreat, so instead of doing anything they just sit there.
% vs cities helps reduce a bit of damage when attacking cities, but only works on attack, and doesn’t lower damage as much as damage reduction.
Moves the city damage reduction to the mainline promotion.
Drill melee units will deal less damage vs cities, but take less damage from both return damage when hitting cities and from city ranged strikes. Overall, this means melee will be slower at taking cities, but hit them more and lose less HP. The end result is more XP for melee units and slower, safer sieges.
% Bonus vs cities becomes a specialty pick:

- this differentiates melee and siege unit combat more, because siege units are now the main damage dealers vs cities​

- mounted melee units that pick drill now have a bonus that doesn’t just revert their 33% penalty vs cities​

- statue of Zeus isn’t just an extra level of drill on all units. Its bonus is more unique.​

City assault/Forlorn Hope now gives you an option to hit cities faster and liquidate a bit of effectiveness vs units in exchange. Converts melee unit from a damage soaker to a damage dealer siege unit. Total bonuses stay close to the same as now. When you pick everything.
Forlorn Hope name change is flavorful

 

[Rekk]

Please note that the bonus +%CS only applies to attacking cities, not when defending against them.

In this end, this results in +3% more damage taken and -8% CS when attacking cities. Is a Drill III + CA unit strong enough that it needs even this amount of a nerf?

 

[pineappledan]

I find when I have all 4 promotions my units do just fine, and don’t need more vs cities. However, that damage reduction from city assault is so important. Without it the melee units can't absorb more than 1-2 hits on a city before I have to pull them back.

Framing this as a nerf is not accurate. If you don't take Forlorn hope you still have 60% damage reduction. 3 promotions with an optional of a tradeoff, compared to the current version where all the bonuses are smaller individually, and only hold up once all are picked.
This new version will let melee units attack more, gain XP faster, and make that decision sooner too.
3% on a 30-60% cumulative bonus and 8% on a 100-108% bonus is immaterial. A rounding error.

 

[Solic]

I think City assault is more descriptive about what the promotion is about than Forlorn Hope. City assault is very plain, meaning you take this if you want to attack cities. Forlorn Hope only hints at some kind of berserk effect within the promotion and maybe only sounds appropriate now, because of the newness of now having a drawback in there too.

 

[pineappledan]

A forlorn hope is a band of soldiers or other combatants chosen to take the vanguard in a military operation, such as a suicidal assault through the kill zone of a defended position, or the first men to climb a scaling ladder against a defended fortification, where the risk of casualties is high

Forlorn hope - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I'm not super stuck on the name. I just figured it worked.

 

[Legen]

City assault bonuses:
Requires drill II+33% damage reduction vs cities+33% when attacking cities

City Assault:
Renamed to Forlorn Hope
Requires drill II-30% damage reduction vs cities (ie MORE damage from cities)+100% when attacking cities

City Assault is also part of the Shock line, unlocked at Shock III. For clarification, do you intent to make a new promotion for the Drill line that replaces its access to City Assault, or do you want to change City Assault for both lines?

 

[pineappledan]

You are right. Also, Zulu Buffalo Loins unlocks it (since it unlocks everything)

Amended to a version that subtracts %CS so it is more widely applicable

 

[Zakuzelo]

I dunno, I'm skeptical. Are cavalry just screwed, then? Why the CS reduction on City Assault/Forlorn Hope?
It seems like it'd be enough to just have Drill apply on both attack and defense.

 

[pineappledan]

Mounted melee with drill would deal less damage to cities, but also receive less

 

[Rekk]

In what way would cavalry be screwed?

This proposal requires no dll implementation

 

[Legen]

My concern with the proposed Forlorn Hope is that it looks quite situational for the Shock and Buffalo lines, as those lines focus on fighting units and don't want a CS malus against units. And I don't know if the AI will handle its situational nature well, which could end as a pseudo nerf to it. The current City Assault at worst has use as a way to keep fighting under a city's range more safely, Forlorn Hope requires you to know what you're doing if picking it on a Shock focused unit.

I think your proposal is better focusing on the Drill Line and have Forlorn Hope as a new promotion under it, instead of trying to fit it into the Shock and Buffalo Lines as a replacement to City Assault. Easier to balance and less prone to an AI making mistakes with it.

 

[Zuizgond]

Clearly a nerf. Currently with 4 promotions you have:

Attack on units : +30%
Attack on cities : +138%
Defense from units : +30%
Defense from cities : +63%

With this change you'll have:

Attack on units : +10% (-20%)
Attack on cities : +110% (-28%)
Defense from units : +10% (-20%)
Defense from cities : +70% (+7%)

 

[pineappledan]

The problem is that 20% city damage reduction is stronger than 25% when attacking cities. That means the drill line is significantly better, without needing city assault. If the overall strength vs cities is going to remain close to the same, city assault either has to:
A) offer a smaller effect, like +66% vs cities
B) give a large effect, but with a tradeoff

If we opt for a smaller bonus on city assault, with no drawback, I don’t see how it would ever be worth picking at all.

It might be worth dropping from the shock line entirely.

 

[Zuizgond]

In any case with 4 promotions I'll always choose Stalwart over City assault. I lose 33% city attack but I gain 35% defense against units (defense against cities stay roughly the same).

 

[pineappledan]

Clearly a nerf. Currently with 4 promotions you have:

Attack on units : +30%
Attack on cities : +138%
Defense from units : +30%
Defense from cities : +63%

With this change you'll have:

Attack on units : +10% (-20%)
Attack on cities : +110% (-28%)
Defense from units : +10% (-20%)
Defense from cities : +70% (+7%)

Copying this here. This is results from tests Rek did on this a while back.

10% damage reduction is roughly equivalent to 25% vs cities on attack. In addition, Damage reduction affects city range strikes.

This new proposal increases total potential City damage reduction from 33% to 60%

 

[Zuizgond]

I have a doubt now, does damage reduction from cities also help you take less damage when you attack? I've always thought it was only for ranged attack defense.

 

[Rekk]

I have a doubt now, does damage reduction from cities also help you take less damage when you attack? I've always thought it was only for ranged attack defense.

Yes, you take less damage when you attack. It's the main point of the ability.

 

[Zuizgond]

Ok my bad, thanks. Now I wonder how much damage reduction you lose with the -20% CS from Forlorn Hope...

 

[pineappledan]

In any case with 4 promotions I'll always choose Stalwart over City assault. I lose 33% city attack but I gain 35% defense against units (defense against cities stay roughly the same).

This is exactly my sentiment.

If drill 1/2/3 gives damage reduction, the line has much more survivability. How does City assault augment that without either making melee way too good at sieges, and causing a larger balancing headache, or so vestigial that everyone just ignores that promotion and goes for Stalwart every time? City Assault still has to present a valuable option or else it becomes vestigial.

The present situation is no good though, because CA in its current form is arguably Too necessary. Drill can't use its combined 75% vs cities, because attacking cities takes too much revenge damage; you need the city damage reduction from CA in order to use it at all. So how do we fix that problem without either leaving CA an empty husk, or making melee so good at city taking they supplant the need for siege units?

 

[Zuizgond]

The new drill line has much more survivability against cities, but defense against units it's another story : taking Forlorn and having -20% CS on both attack and defense vs taking Stalwart with +35% CS on defense, I don't know if I would take the risk to take Forlorn.

What about only +50% when attacking cities and remove the -20% CS? Would you take it over Stalwart?