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5 Million Points with "Inca Rush 2012"

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by WastinTime, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Intro

    The intent is to score 5 million points. I plan to do that mainly by moving from Small to a Standard size map, but I've also overhauled the traditional Inca/Quechua Rush to set up the economy for long game. Naturally, I will also incorporate some improved gameplay I've picked up since my last high score run. This game will require patience. In this case, not just from me, the player, but you the reader--if you intend to follow along. The game has been on hold for several months and I don't intend to continue playing until next month. Reviewing the progress so far will help me remember where I left off. Standard size is playing out differently than my previous games on Tiny or Small, so I will be looking for some advice.

    High Score history:

    BTS (because of corporations, and a change in the timeline which affected score greatly) allowed much higher scores than vanilla.
    Way back (Jan 2008), we started seeing 500K+ scores by VirusMonster, and they seemed impressive. The strategy article for that game is a good read.

    This was quickly followed by killercane's first 1 million+ game.

    WastinTime had an unofficial 2.1 million on Tiny size.

    When I started--and then stopped-- the game we're now going to walk thru (in March 2012,) the current HoF high score (set way back in 2009 by WastinTime) was just under 3.2 million on a Small map.

    If you're reading this (and not living under a rock) you've learned, as of June 2012, the new high score is ~3.6 million, played by Seraiel on a Huge map.
    The reason I put my game on hold was because I didn't want to suck the air out of Seraiel's sails on his journey to 3+ million.

    There was also an unofficial score of 3.3+ million which held the top score spot briefly. It was Immortal difficulty on a Standard size map by T-hawk which mostly adhered to the HoF restrictions, and I consider it valid. I plan to get slightly more population than achieved in that game by settling more islands and less mainland, but I plan to do it on Deity (instead of Immortal) and ~40 turns faster, which takes the score to 5 million.

    This is not a fantasy. It's very calculated, literally. The same person, T-hawk, has created a fantastic score calculator.
    It had recently gotten some new attention thanks to one of Seraiel's initial efforts, and I've been using the excel version for a long time.

    Goal

    Score 5.0 million.

    Population and finish date/turn are all that really matters to score. Turning to the score calculator we see a couple options:

    4500 population, win on turn 460 (800 AD)

    Spoiler :
    The game is now complete and my final numbers were:

    4548 population, won on turn 468 (840 AD)


    4800 population, win on turn 475 (875 AD)

    or, seeing how late Seraiel's game went (544 turns), maybe I'll aim for:
    5400 population, win on turn 500 (1000 AD)

    For comparison, T-hawk (playing the same size map as I am) achieved 4400 population on turn 508.


    Pre-game:

    I used max opponents (10). Even though it lowers the domination limit (meaning less land and less population), it gives you close, conquerable neighbors and still leaves some trading partners alive. You may be better off using less than the max on Large or Huge maps...discuss.

    The map, of course, is Big & Small. High seas produce the most tiny islands. And my secret is arid! I've always used arid climate because it lowers the 'max' population used in the score formula. You could try to argue that arid has less food, but I will probably remain unconvinced. The AI can have most of the dry mainland, and I don't care if the terrain under my island city is a desert--I still get 2 food from it!

    I didn't want to waste your time on false starts, so I've played a few games out until the Oracle is built. (One time, the Oracle was lost turn 124, then on turn 99! So I regenerated.) Now my new game has stabilized and should be on target for 5 million!

    Here's the starting Screenshot.



    I'll pause the writeup here to discuss...Where would you settle?

    Next up is Inca Rush 2012 and the first 30 turns.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  2. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    I knew it! I remember when I wanted to try it out (but changed my mind), I went arid climate because food is in average less. It made sense to me ,after T-Hawk article read, it would boost score. But huge was too much and I fled to something else.
     
  3. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    5 million target? :thud: :eek:

    Will definitely follow this. Not a lack of epic games recently so will be interesting if you climb back on top of the Throne.

    Looks like a killer start with quadruple gold. Would be nice with a proper food source of course, but with floodplains maybe it isn't such a huge deal afterall. Can always hope there is pig or some other juicy food in the shadows somewhere; maybe up north?

    Good luck! :)
     
  4. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Oh I guess you settled 1N. You keep you forests, you get 7 FP's (that is 2.8 => 2 :sick: ) and almost the most powerful city tile for a FIN leader.

    And hope Seraiel will find his way to retake it. No offense, but WastinTime has too much feats on his record. One obscure facet of his, he is one the legendary culture expert.
     
  5. Bugio

    Bugio Warlord

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    1N seems obvious, but since you're asking and i have a feeling you will play this game differently i say SIP. I guess you can always settle the gold 3N1E later and you get 3 more forests to chop.
     
  6. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    1N for me. Start doesn't look overly awesome too me though, but should do the trick.

    Nice to finally understand on your climate choice (Arid) , you dirty little cheater :D . Getting others advice for your game is like gangbanging up on me :D . Guess it's time to get out the big guns first :D . Just kiddin', very excited on following this game :) .

    Cya, Sera
     
  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Thrilla' in Manilla :D
     
  8. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I'll follow this one with interest as well, might learm some more from the masters....
     
  9. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Settled 1N?!@? What is this madness, the obvious choice is settling on the cow!

    Good luck with 5 million. I will try to follow this, but if you're like Sera, and have tons of huge posts I doubt I will be able to. :p
     
  10. AbsoluteZero

    AbsoluteZero Deity

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    1N for the turn 2 5 hammer quechua rush. Also gives +2 GPT, I don't see how you could settle anywhere else.
     
  11. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    5 million??? Picks up jaw from ground. Frick you guys with doing such incredible stuff. Now my head is going to explode again like in Seraiels thread. Will be following this closely though. I don't like the start though, I would settle two S otherwise this is too easy ;)
     
  12. joanne

    joanne Barbarian

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    Just when I thought that it couldn't get any better... :D

    I didn't know that climate had an effect on score; arid climate lowering maxpop seems weird to me because arid tends to have more big floodplains areas in my experience, especially after the latest patches eliminated desert rivers
     
  13. Choggy

    Choggy Prince

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    5 million! I've only just gotten over reading Seraiel's writeup, and here we are with even more madness. Awesome!

    Main thing I'd be concerned about is having enough health to work the gold tiles. Settling 1N gives 2 gold plus the bonus from settling on the gold (+1 hammers, +2 commerce?) but also loses 3 food to FP unhealthiness (think I've counted 7 of them!) although you get one back with the cow but it may mean you can't chop out all the forests.

    SIP loses the gold settle, still has 7FP but adds 3 forests...hmmm...I'm going to go with SIP because I'm guessing a chop-fuelled quechua rush is on the cards here!
     
  14. Habitus

    Habitus Emperor

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    1N for a 2:food:2:hammers:3:commerce: city tile, with a 3:hammers: tile to work for Quechua production.

    @Choggy Floodplains give 0.4:yuck: rounded down so 7 * 0.4 = 2.8 rounded to 2:yuck:
     
  15. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Your link to my score calculator breaks, the link says "http://www.dos486.com/civ4/index/calc.shtmlhttp://". Correct link is in my sig. :) Anyway, glad you found it useful!

    My game was on a standard size map, and I covered every possible island, with minimal mainland cities to stay under domination. Can you really find enough extra islands to get 50% more score?
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    True that I always count my FP's and almost never play an 8 FP. This one is 7 as you noted.

    Thx for the nod on culture. I'm glad my reputation survived since it's been 5 years since I put out my best efforts on that.

    Congratulations to Bugio for not only correctly guessing my first move (SIP), but also identifying what pretty much all of you agree is the best move (1N). I'll explain my choice in the next update.

    Agree, it is not overly awesome. So, our styles are similar here... I play in "funk you stupid mapfinder" mode. For the uninitiated, that means I play quickly and with high risk, figuring I'll just have to regen this anyway to get some corn!

    gangbanging: See, this is why we don't want anyone spellchecking you. We are "ganging up" on you. Gangbanging you is something different :lol:

    I'll keep them short. I won't hit the post max like he does.

    And for that I apologize to the others that appreciate his style.

    You're right. It's a classic 5 hammer quechua rush start, but thinking outside the box. Wait til you see the results.

    Max pop is simply based on counting all the food on the map before improvements. T-hawk's map was around 1500. Mine is only 1332.

    If you were going for fast conquest or dom, you are correct, but chopping is not part of the economy-focused Q rush. I know I never have BW for about 100 turns. By then the rush is over.

    That is the traditional, ideal start for Q-rush and a great segue into my next post: "Inca Rush 2012" (coming later today)

    Fixed link.

    Arid climate and switching to Deity make up most of the extra score. Notice that if I'm fast enough (turn 460), I'm only planning a 2% increase in population over your game. The 2nd scenario needs a 9% increase in pop. You left a couple islands for the AI, so I hope I can squeeze that out.
     
  17. Choggy

    Choggy Prince

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    Only in Civ4 would 2.8 get rounded to 2 :crazyeye: Good to know though, I've always been slightly wary of settling round lots of FP tiles as I assumed FP:yuck: was rounded to the nearest whole number.

    Still would SIP though, with another city settled either in the fog by the mountain or 1E above the freshwater tile running the other 2 goldmines. Looks like there some more forest up there.

    EDIT: Ignore me......Ive just seen WastinTime's update :cringe:
     
  18. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Rounding down can also screw you of course, like an odd number of forests for health, beakers and surely many other avenues.

    Look forward to the first update.
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    We left off with our mapfinder start. As discussed, the start location not that great (for HoF standards). Just a double gold start (with a couple gold for a future city--but that doesn't really effect the first 150 turns) No hammer bonus in city! No wet corn--not even dry corn!
    Just a cow and some FloodPlains. So the initial 150 turns you're about to review can be beaten by simply having a better tile to settle on, and/or Corn in the BFC.

    I choose to settle in place. Why, when the obvious choice is to settle on the gold? Each item below is a pretty weak argument, but added all together, I chose SIP.
    1) You settle 1 turn earlier
    2) You (eventually) have 4 gold instead of 3.
    3) The AI will settle one or both of them for me if I'm farther away
    4) More forests
    5) I get to pop the hut with my warrior (for possible tech)

    #5 was the final straw. If I pop the hut before I settle, or if I auto-pop it when I settle on the gold, there is 0% chance of getting a tech.
    I was in Seraiel's "funk you map" mode of play, so I needed to gamble that something would improve this "average" start location.

    I think you all are probably right though. If I had discussed this start with anyone, I would have been convinced to settle on the gold.

    Inca Rush 2012:

    Regardless of how this game turns out, I've re-engineered the Inca Rush to make it more efficient for a long term strategy. I believe you will see significant improvement over what you would expect after 150 turns.

    History: Inca Rushes have been attempted on many start locations, and I believe the ideal plan was usually to settle on a PH and work a forested PH so you get a quechua every 6 turns. Several other options will give you a 5 hammer start (or even a 6 hammer start for quechuas every 5 turns).

    This is fine for fast conquest, etc., but needed some tuning to make it more appropriate for a long term strategy.

    New plan: I decided to challenge that standard and attempt a new Inca Rush. I was motivated by my 2 gold start and the successful (and very slow starting) Darius Immortal rushes. I didn't want to waste my 2 gold by waiting 100 turns to work the 2nd gold. So I will grow first and delay the rush.

    I also knew I wanted to steal workers, but then I thought of another great reason to delay the rush. The AI builds another worker and connect roads between their (my) cities. Maybe build a farm or pasture too, or even settle a 3rd city. I have plenty of time, so since I have 2 gold and no mines for at least 25-35 turns, I'll grow early, before the gold is mined, so I can spend more time with a citizen working it after the mine is complete.

    At size 2, the capital can put out a stream of quechua and still grow to size 3. Now you get to work 2 gold and the quechua come out really fast.

    Besides working gold tiles efficiently, the 2nd way to maintain the economy is to limit yourself to 7 cities (on a standard size map) until after currency. Maybe 8 cities if it's a really good one. This limit was not as hard to stay under as I expected. A combination of the rush starting late and being able to Oracle currency much, much sooner meant there was only a small window where I had to resist aquiring more cities.

    Time to start the game.
    Plan: capture the surrounding cities (keep the best ones) using the Inca Rush-2012.

    I used to use the milestone of building Oracle for Currency before turn 150. In a perfect world, shortly after the Oracle, I would like to get the Great Lighthouse, Pyramids, Collosus, and Hanging Gardens. Can all that be done by turn 150!? Read on!

    Turn 0 - 30



    Turn 0: SIP
    Work the FP for 22 turns to grow to size 2. I would normally have 4 quechua and be attacking my neighbor by turn 22. Not any more.

    I play in "funk you map" mode...
    for exactly 3 turns!

    Turn 3: free mining from a hut!
    Ok, that's lucky, but the reality is, if I hadn't popped that, I probably would not have played this map because the start isn't that great. Mapfinder can provide many OK starts. It's easy to quickly play a few of them, and once you pop mining, fishing, AH, masonry, or wheel go ahead and follow thru with that game.
    Regarding hut luck: I got not one single other hut. Not one gold coin. So free mining isn't really much better than 250 gold....discuss.

    I set research to Wheel, Pottery.

    Turn ?: I meet Mansa and put all EP on him so I can see what he's researching.

    I head up NW to reveal Asoka. Look! he has stone. I have to keep that city for the Mids. Oooo, and another gold. He also has a nice capital. I steal his fast worker around turn 10. Funny how he is no longer fast now that he works for me :confused:.
    Those are 2 keepers.

    Turn 10: I head east to find America. Normally, I would keep the cow city without thinking, but I have to watch out for my 7 city cap. I will raze it. Sadly it is already size 2, so it wouldn't even auto-raze.

    His capital looks kinda pathetic. Dry corn and Sheep on a PH. I have to keep it for all those juicy forests.
    Those cities are my first two targets.

    Turn 22-ish: I steal America's worker.
    I grow to size 2, but my gold mine isn't ready yet, so I continue to harvest food to minimize my grow time from 2 to 3. Delaying the Q-rush even more than I had initially thought I would.

    Turn 23: Buddhism is founded. No one is running that religion in the Turn 30 screenshot, so that means Gandhi. He's the only one I haven't met yet. How far away is buddhism going to be? On some island? :cry:

    Look how bad my luck was there with the extra gold. Both AI settled 1 tile too far north to work the gold :(.

    Next we will do some more exploring, and (finally) start the rush.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2018
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Looking forward to seeing how your score game develops. Great job so far!

    Sun Tzu Wu
     

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