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52 shades of Sid - a story of deities (closed)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pedro78, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,166
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    Iron Working beeline could have been a thing, here. Rome doing its Roman thing.
    You start with BW and have 4 seafood tiles to improve that can be spread over 3 cities.

    Good luck regardless.
     
  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,547
    Location:
    Finland
    @Lain
    Spoiler :
    How would you compare your position vs Pedro's? You are a bit behind on :science: but I like your settling choices more (compactness/border tension, way more riverside).
     
  3. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,899
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    @Pedro78
    Spoiler :
    Do you intend on rushing someone with phants? It seems so from your statement about the city only needing granary, lighthouse, and rax by construction. If so, why not bulb maths while researching HBR and Masonry? I know it's not usually optimal, but you can immediately start on construction and have some early cataphants. And you can use 2nd GS for academy after you cottages some more and grown some of them.


    @BornInCantaloup
    Spoiler :
    AFAIK, on deity, it's very risky to beeline iron working. Rome starts with Mining not BW so you have to grab 2 expensive techs forgoing roads, cottages, and food techs for expansion cities to do so. Then, there's the chance that you don't even have access to iron in which you are really far behind now. Iron working isn't even really tradable bc by the time you get alpha, AIs almost always all have it as they prioritise it.

    More successful deity players, feel free to correct me if I'm off.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  4. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    @BornInCantaloup thanks :)
    You make an interesting point, but I disagree on the IW beeline here.
    Spoiler about praets :

    You're right about one thing : this map can give you some damn early praets (2000BC IW?).
    But with that kind of setup no iron = game over basically. I don't want to take that risk.

    This is one of the rare maps where I'd beeline praets if I knew I had iron, though, because Praets are extremely strong if you attack very early. A praet beeline might be even stronger than a Phant rush here, but "we'd rather win the game, thank you very much" ;)


    @blitzkrieg1980
    Spoiler :


    Maths bulb can be very good in a low commerce situation, but here I have a lot of commerce and it won't result in a significantly earlier attack date. Here I can almost be done teching HBR + maths by the time I get the GS. And using a GS to bulb maths is also a huge waste of beakers, I'd rather use the GS for something else. Even settling him would be better than bulbing maths here. Plus this is a Terra map, which means I'll most likely need some GS for Astro (don't think I can win conquest before the AIs settle the new world here).

    And yup your reasoning about IW beeline is correct.


    More generally about Praetorians on deity :
    Spoiler :

    Praets alone are only good if you can get them really early (1500BC attack or something). Then it becomes very risky. Praets are strong, but slow. And you'll lose a lot of them if the AI has metals + walls. So most of the time you're better off waiting for cats.
     
    blitzkrieg1980 likes this.
  5. Benginal

    Benginal Emperor

    Joined:
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    Raleigh
    @BornInCantaloup
    Spoiler :
    It seems to me like the gauntlet has been thrown down. :mischief:.


    @Pedro78 Great series so far! Lurking with interest. :popcorn:
     
  6. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    @Benginal thanks ! You can come and play along if you want :)
    By the way I'll be glad to join the next game of your Deity School as I've already opened the spoilers for the first one
     
  7. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
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    Little update to 1000 BC -

    Spoiler Turn 75 - 1000 BC :


    My exploring warriors makes a few (un)pleasant encounters -
    Spoiler new dudes :




    No religion? How unusual :confused:

    We also meet the Hindu founder -



    The peaceweight mix is rather favorable :D


    Turn 55 (1800 BC) Writing. I turn down the slider until I get a library in Rome (3pop whipped, early granary in a capital with a lot of food allows for a lot of flexibility :thumbsup:).

    Might have been better to settle Antium further West, now I have to work plains cottages - not horrible long term as the Wheat will provide better overall food, but I'd much rather have the short term gain, especially when whipping WEs. Not sure how it weighs against the instant trade route and stuff...
    Spoiler Antium :




    On turn 59 Justy decides to spread me buddhism - good news :)
    Spoiler :




    On turn 60 Cumae is connected to trade network via Justinian. Will still have to connect it somehow else to my main empire as I want to be able to build elephants after declaration.

    On turn 61 Justy is kind enough to tell us that -
    Spoiler :



    He has iron :ar15:
    But he has horses so he'll still be building chariots + HAs, which is extremely good for me.


    On the same turn I convert to buddhism, Justinian is now pleased, which means no early DoW from him, and I'm not a landtarget to Peter :smoke:

    Turn 62 - 64. new encounters ; diplo overview :scan:
    Spoiler :



    The Jewish guy - except he's not the founder. The religious screen showed 18% Jewish spread, which means there's another Jewish guy around here -



    Ooh - or is it a girl? :D



    Meet Isabella as expected on turn 64 - she's already annoyed with me... oh well.

    In the meantime Christianity has been founded and stupid Asoka converts to it :lol: (The founder is Justinian, but we can't know that yet)

    Diplo screen tells us that we're about to see some major fireworks :sniper:


    Justy is back to cautious because of borders tensions, but becomes pleased again very quickly


    On turn 64 I gift clams to Boudica (should have been done earlier), won't solve the religious problems but is good for the long term and that's what we want. Justinian has gold but we can't have it (the only resource I have that he doesen't is crabs, but it isn't enough to trade for gold).

    Turn 65 Cumae starts on a settler - not much else to do here for a while, and the Settler comes quickly enough thanks to IMP
    Spoiler :



    Justinian's culture will be a real problem here with SH. I wait impatiently for a buddhism spread, which comes a few turns later


    On the same turn I gift Peter Sheep + Crab for him to get to Pleased early enough for the DoW on Justinian.

    Great Lighthouse goes turn 66, could have build it, but was risky. Anyways I'll attack sooner without it :D. Same turn Boudica is now annoyed... I'll gift her some techs

    On turn 69 Justinian gets Alpha, but doesen't have maths. I don't think I want to give it to him though.

    Turn 70 I finish maths and -
    Spoiler :



    Wow ! You're very welcome my friend :thumbsup:


    On turn 71 Justinian is back to pleased and... :eek::eek::eek:
    Spoiler :



    WOW. That never happens to me in normal game. I decline the offer as it would ruin the comparison with Lain's shadow - that's on the same level as a gem pop :nono:


    On turn 73 I realize another dumb mistake I've made and -
    Spoiler dumb :



    I close borders with Asoka ! I should never have opened borders with that guy in the first place, everyone hates him !!



    Spoiler Empire overview :


    Looks like I've missed out on a fish, definitely settles the debate over Antium's optimal location :D



    Lost the cows in Cumae, but the settler is out so no biggie. Justinian has apparently settled a city 3S1E of here so I'll monitor the culture, really don't want to lose the elephants now.



    Antium is a great spot, both short and long term -



    Cumae brings good commerce and will be very powerful for Elephant whipping



    3whipped a Library here because I was growing into unhappiness + needed my tiles back from Rome, and will be useful eventually


    The capital is extremely powerful short term and also pretty good long term -



    I've built quite a few cottages and 0 farms (except the temporary jumbofarm), but I've already got high food surplus in my 3 main cities so I don't really need more food, cottages however will be very useful throughout the game (and get me to construction quicker).


    Spoiler Tech screen, diplo situation and thoughts :


    Spoiler Tech screen :



    Spoiler diplo screen :




    Soo... Justinian has HBR already, that's good because it means he'll build HAs, but it also means I won't give him maths as I don't want him to get elephants himself (dunno if he has ivory, but I don't want to take that risk). Will probably get Alpha + Hunting/Masonry from Peter for Maths + HBR and then trade with Bismark/Asoka (very carefully, the priority now should be to keep Peter at pleased so I can beg). Maybe I'll just bribe Peter on Justinian when attacking, but I might not have the tech for that.

    Wasn't obvious on the screenshots but the 5th city is on its way to be settled in ~2 turns. I underestimated my tech rate a little bit here. Btw @blitzkrieg1980 now you see how bulbing maths was useless in this scenario ;)

    Didn't need hunting for the Ivory, especially as I had the religion +1:). Disbanded my scouting warrior to keep unit cost at 0, will build a scout to explore Justinian's land, which will later become a SuperMedic. Will switch out of buddhism at some point (after declaring on Justy and when safe with Peter), because it's hurting my diplo, but overall the diplo screen is looking really good for now.

    Now I just have to plan war carefully and also think about what I wanna do when I'm done with Justinian. If I can't take out most of the AIs before they settle the new world then I have to settle it myself, which means early Astro. Also have to keep in mind that if Justinian gets very early longbows, I might have to attack Peter instead.

    Edit : Oh and this shows that not ALL clam starts are slow ;), this one was actually very fast, playing with JC also helped a lot here

    Save attached :goodjob:


    Edit : @Lain I've read your writeup, it's really late now so I will write down my thoughts tomorrow (after I've slept in class for the whole day :sleep:)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  8. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Are you going to settle by the deer ? Any pros to settling in between Cumae and Antium ?

    Looks like you're about 10 turns from getting your war tech :)
    Will you have the production to take on Byzantium ? They're the top dog.
     
  9. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
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    985
    @Lain
    Spoiler Comparing our games until turn 50 :

    The things I like more about your game
    • The spot you chose for your second city is superior, even though it doesen't have immediate connection, as you'll be able to work these riverside grasslands much sooner. I had to cottage plains, which I don't like to do early on. Without any further information I'd say that the best spot would be 1S of the Sheep to minimize border pressure though.
    • You didn't tech Agriculture. That's the first thing I would change if I replayed from the start. It made 0 sense to tech Agri instead of Hunting here, I've been fooled by the unreachable wheat. I'd be in a better position right now had I gone the Hunting route.
    The things I believe could be better
    • Scouting. I know that's kind of a matter of personnal taste in most cases, and I know that you like to play safe, which is "always" the right choice. But I firmly believe that when you have limited space like that it's far superior to risk the warrior and get a better view of the potential spots/strategic resources. Here it has set you back a little (forced to 1whip a settler etc.) Barbs aren't crazy on this kind of map, and you can always build another warrior, especially with this much production, which brings me to my next point.
    • Improving the clams. At turn ~45 you still have only one improved clam ! I know that in many cases building workboats can be a waste as they're expensive and hammers are better spend somewhere else, but here you have lots of extra hammers from chops and can 2whip settlers immediately, so having more food surplus + more commerce is a huge advantage. I think that really set you back. Everything else we did was pretty similar but improving and working the clams has put me ahead in both techs and production, even thouh your city spots are slightly (except for the ivory spot), and even though I made the dumb mistake of teching Agri.
    Misc thoughts

    I think waiting for size 4 to 2whip the first settler is superior. It allows you to get a second wb out while growing to 4pop. And getting it out earlier won't do you any good at this point (the difference is 3 turns) : you'll get there before Justinian's 4th city both ways and if he decides to settle his 3rd city here you're screwed both ways.

    You first chopped a non-riverside tile. I wouldn't do that but maybe there was a reason for it?

    The settling of the crab city is a close call. Settling it on the hill allows you to work the northern riverside grass tiles earlier which can be an advantage. Settling it coastal allows it to get a lighthouse before whipping elephants which can be better. Not sure about border tensions as you've settled Antium so close to Justinian anyways.

    If you spot some mistakes in my turnset that I didn't notice, or think I'm wrong about some things I've said above, please correct me :thumbsup:

    Anyways I'm eager to see how it will turn out for the both of us, I'm sure we'll learn a lot of things from this game, especially as I have little experience with early wars :)



    @BornInCantaloup
    Spoiler :


    Yes I'll settle by the deer. It will be a very good city to pump out units : good food as it will borrow one clam from Rome and claims more forests.

    In a peaceful game I'd definitely settle between Antium and Cumae at some point (not too early though and only if the spot is still available). Here it only drag me down as the city wouldn't bring in any extra food and that's what I need for rushing.

    I will have a lot of production for this stage of the game : 4 cities will have (very) good food, even Rome will be whipped (moderately and probably 7-5 or something). So taking out Justinian shouldn't be a problem as long as he doesen't get longbows. If he does I might just attack Peter instead (I'd rather not :D).
     
  10. Lain

    Lain King

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Messages:
    712
    @sampsa

    Spoiler :

    Yeah, Mysticism in my game might have been unnecessary and I fell behind on research. It's one of those decisions that with hindsight could be avoided. Justi spread Buddhism quite early. But: Attacking 5 turns later probably won't cost me the game. Losing the ivory to culture and not having iron might end the game immediately though. Archers+Catapults is not so hot.

    All the river tiles should ensure a decent economy, even if the war doesn't go well. I only need to capture 2-3 cities and could still go for Cuirs or something after that.


    @Pedro78

    Spoiler :

    Yeah I totally agree with your analysis. I improved the clams quite late. But I don't know about waiting for size 4 to get the first settler. Wasn't it pretty close in your game? Justi settler party already approached. I just felt that if he got the sheep city it would be a really, really big problem. So didn't want to risk that.

    Good points on scouting. Yeah, I can't help myself sometimes. Playing so carefully. Sometimes it's hard to compare games because of that :D. Because if I go Archery (not here) and someone else goes with warrior defense and survives, he will probably have a big advantage. I try to consider: Do I actually decrease my winning chances with this decision? If not, sometimes I don't mind some compromises. Safe, but maybe not ideal decisions.

    I chopped non-riverside, because I wanted to build a grassland mine. So I moved into that direction with my worker.
     
  11. Lain

    Lain King

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Messages:
    712
    1000 BC

    Spoiler :

    The 1-pop-panic-whip for ivory-city must have slowed me down. Writing only in 1560 BC. Later Library, later scientists etc. Was able to make this trade though.



    1360 BC, barely improved all the clam and only now getting the library...





    1000 BC, I have Horseback Riding and Alphabet. Math+Construction to go. Nobody has Math yet, tech seems to be moving slow enough. Antium whipped settler for deer+shared clam in the south. Could have done it earlier, I suppose. Decent enough, compact empire. GS will be settled or saved for Philo bulb. I work on a 2nd scientist in Cumae. Academy probably not worth it, I don't know.




    @Pedro78

    Spoiler :

    You are going for Justinian? I thought Peter would be the better target. More scouting needed for me, but Justinian is loyal and won't backstab. Peter will... you can bribe him in, but I don't know... better to feel safe I think.

    I am basically 5 turns behind you looks like. Combination of going for Mysticism and suboptimal whip in capital I guess.
     
  12. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
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    985
    @Lain
    Spoiler :

    I like the way you want to maximize your winning odds and I totally agree with the Archery thing, but here it's different. Had you missed out on the elephants and then have no iron the game would have taken a totally different shape :D. And losing a warrior amounts close to nothing with this much early production.

    It's rare that the AI gets a third city before T35, and here the spot was far away from Justin so I felt safe. I still beat him by 2 turns so it was 99% safe I think.

    Mines are great when IMP but they certainly can't beat chopping this early : getting the clams up very fast is much better. The capital is very powerful when the clams are improved, and chopping workboats is very quick. I had all the clams improved by turn 32 ~ iirc. No reason to work food negative tiles when you have "free" 4F2C tiles. By working a grass mine you hinder growth and commerce, and eventually production as the city is so easily whipable once the clams are online. Would be a completely different story without a PH to settle on, few forests and a couple of floodplains of course ;)
     
  13. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    @Lain
    Spoiler :

    Your position is strong, you're a little behind in tech but your cities are better. Your Ivory city turned out to be better than mine, which is completely useless. The reward for being too greedy...

    Maybe it's also too greedy to attack Justin? I thought if I could get him before longbows it would be a breeze. He's got gold and rivers, which I like a lot. Or maybe it's just better to take out Peter and roll over the map with cuirs... But this would ruin all the fun of playing on a Terra map. Peter favors Bureaucracy so he'll be friendly eventually, and for now I can bribe him onto Justy, then get him to attack Asoka. Justy is the only potential runaway AI here. Will be a tougher war but I see many reasons to attack him.

    I'm not a fan of settling great scientists on maps where you can trade a lot, I'd much rather bulb something. In a perfect world I'll bulb philo and will lib Astro after taking out Justy, can't help but be greedy :D. If it doesen't work I'll have learned a lesson, if it does I'll have a lot of fun.

    It would also be great to have iron so I can start building Praets before Construction and attack a couple of turns sooner.

    Not sure how far (if at all) I'll play tonight, but this weekend I should have a lot of time :scan:

    Just a little question : how come Boudica isn't annoyed with you : some diplo bonus or did you only convert to buddhism recently?
     
  14. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
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    985
    Update to turn 100 (375BC).

    That's gonna be a looong writeup, hope y'all don't find it boring, 'cause it was fairly eventful :lol:

    Spoiler Writeup to turn 100 (375 BC) - 1/2 :


    We stopped at turn 75 (1000 BC). I stop there and spend some time thinking. A few things come to mind :
    In order of importance
    • I move my fogbusting warrior up north for scouting purposes as a stupid Indian scout is trapped by my culture and doing the fogbusting job.
      Spoiler :
    • Why did I whip that stupid library in Neapolis? I should have got a worker instead as I could definitely use one more for chopping (have 3 atm)
    • Peter is very close to Maths (can only get ~200:science: worth of techs from it), which means no HBR + Maths for Alpha trade as planned
    • And finally the most gamechanging thing. I realize Peter doesen't have any metals :
      Spoiler :
      Then I've checked an older save to get an idea of when he got IW. He got Alpha on turn 71 and already had IW by then. This means he most likely doesn't have access to any metals. No reason to attack Justinian anymore !
    Taking this into account, I decide to change plans :
    • I trade maths for IW + Mysticism with Justinian to reveal iron -- having iron means I won't have to tech Construction (It would also mean that teching HBR was a complete waste of time :D).
      Spoiler :
      and...
      Spoiler :
      We've got iron :smoke::smoke:
      This means I'll go full Roman style on Peter. The tech trade screen shows that no one has extra metals yet, and only Justin is pleased with him (the others won't trade strat ressources). So there's a fairly big chance that Peter won't have access to iron. Ever. :ar15:
    • So I give Maths to Peter for sailing
      Spoiler :
      I don't need hunting right now because worker isn't in position to improve the Jumbos for 2 more turns, and I might just trade him HBR for alpha a little later. Masonry isn't needed anymore.
    Spoiler why would you give him HBR if you plan to attack him? :

    When you don't have construction, HAs in a city are much weaker than Archers :p


    Spoiler a few "minor" things, still T75 :

    • I watch the copper 3N of Cumae (jumbo city) very closely
    • I change my mind and beg hunting from Justy and...
      Spoiler :
      :)
    • Of course I immediately go full Praet mode - Worker starts on iron mine on T76
    • After all it might be an easy game :lol:


    Turn 76 --
    Spoiler :

    • Bismark gets Alpha, he has HBR but not maths.
    • I decide to put a couple turns into Alpha and give HBR or Maths for it.
    • I get a scout ASAP to scout Peter's land
      Spoiler :
      I send a Warrior aswell.
    • Peter still doesen't have swords
    The only thing I regret about not attacking Justinian is that his culture is a real PITA. But catching Peter with his pants down is so much more profitable I can't ignore him. Plus there's a few other advantages of killing Peter and leaving Justinian alive as Lain already stated

    Turn 78 --
    Spoiler :

    • 5th city settled. Now it's not doing me any good :mad: - "Yup he's got an AI without metals next door and he's still complaining"
    • Some tech trades :
      Spoiler :
      Bismark was really close to maths so I grabbed what I could
    • Currency next then CoL. Gs will bulb Philosophy. Not teching Construction allows for a so much easier game :crazyeye:
    • I trade some res to Boudica (canceled my pointless gifts to Peter), it's never too late to try and get up some good relations :goodjob:
      Spoiler :

    Turn 79 --
    Spoiler :

    • Iron hooked up. The res trade screen confirms that Peter doesen't have any. Oh and he doesen't have ivory either.
    • Carefully trading with Asoka (don't want to get any -4 "You have traded with our worst ennemies", and everyone hates this guy) - he was close to Alpha so I grabbed what I could
      Spoiler :
    • All these guys are teching fairly slow - only Isabella has Monarchy and Justy has Theo :
      Spoiler :

    Turn 80 --
    Spoiler :

    • Boudica is back to cautious thanks to OB +1.
    • I start pre-whipping Praetorians while barracks are finishing. Really want to attack ASAP


    Spoiler about whipping Praets/HAs/Cats :

    All these can be 2pop whipped with overflow. As 1pop whipping is suboptimal (you outgrow the whip timer way too fast this way), it's good to time your chops so that you always 2pop whip the units, but don't spend ages slowbuilding them. Easier said than done :D

    Turn 81 --
    Spoiler :

    • Manage to trade for gold from Justy for crab + clam
      Spoiler :
      That's extremely useful considering the massive upcoming whippage :whipped:
    • Confucianism is founded. It's Justinian.

    Turn 82 --
    Spoiler :

    • GS born in Rome. I put him to rest because an Academy would make little sense here, especially as I'll be able to bulb Philo fairly early.
    • Boudica starts plotting. Asoka is most likely the target : she hates him and he gets the close borders diplo penalty

    Turn 83 --
    Spoiler :

    • I spot iron in Peter's land :run::run:
      Spoiler :
      Weirdly enough it's in a city that has been founded a while ago but isn't improved yet. No worker around either. I move up a Praet ASAP to pillage this on the turn I attack.

    Turn 84 --
    Spoiler :

    • I start 1pop whipping Praets in Neapolis to speed up the attack date. Workers do nothing but chop and road into Peter for faster troop movement.
    • I get the explanation for Peter's unimproved iron :
      Spoiler :
      It's adjacent to barbarian borders, which means a worker will never move there. The AI is really stupid but that's how it works. As long as the barb city stands Peter won't have iron. And if I attack him he most likely won't have the troops to take that barb city :goodjob:
    I'd have preferred if Peter simply didn't have metals. It would make very little in game difference, but wouldn't feel like an insane stroke of luck. But oh hey, at least I'll get to Praet-rush on deity :)

    Turns 84-87 --
    Spoiler :

    NOTHING :D - just Praet building

    Turn 88 --
    Spoiler :

    • I notice that St Petersburg is very lightly defended (2 archers) so I decide to attack next turn with 7 Praets
    • A steady Praet flow will follow
    • Asoka has Monarchy and I can tell that he's researching either Maths or HBR but I don't want to trade right now as it would give me diplo hits (he'll give Mona + Archery but I don't want the latter) so I decide to wait
    • I move my scouting warrior back as it doesen't look like Peter is making any effort towards taking the iron-cutting-barb city
    "Okay kids, let's all say bye-bye to uncle Peter" :ar15::ar15:

    Turn 89 :ar15:
    Spoiler :

    • Currency. Turn down slider and start on CoL. - In most cases it's better to save gold until you have enough to research the whole tech at 100% : you get a boost on your research when an AI you know discovers the tech you're researching
    • Trade HBR + Maths to Asoka for Monarchy + 50 gold
      Spoiler :
      I still get -1 "You have traded with our worst ennemies" from Boudica, but not Peter nor Justin, even though Asoka is their WE, does anyone have an explanation for this?
    • Sell some minor techs for gold :
      Spoiler :
    • Tech situation looking great now --
      Spoiler :
    • Finally :ar15::ar15:
      Spoiler :
    • Peter's land is awesome :
      Spoiler :
    • The Plan is capture St Petersburg and then Moscow. Then split stacks and take the rest of his cities. Praets vs Archers is gonna be a walk in the park. He could have 20 cities it wouldn't be any different. The war will be fairly long because Praets are slow, but it will also be very cheap as I won't lose many units. I'll have to take the "iron city" soon enough, but that's about it.

    Turn 90 :ar15:
    Spoiler :

    • Sell clams to Boudica for 5gpt - need to. Get rich or die tryin' :smoke:
    • Praetorians advance to St Petersburg. The situation looks hopeless for Peter's 2 miserable Archers. Feels like playing on Emperor again :lol:

    Turn 91 :ar15:
    Spoiler :

    • Renegociate the clam + crab for gold deal with Justy
      Spoiler :
      Now I'll really get rich :queen:
    • Boudica declares war on Asoka (Big surprise :eek::eek::eek:)
    • Okay so now let's take a look at our odds vs. Peter's fearsome stack of now 3 Archers - Flatland, 40% culture, 25% fortify, CG1 Archer
      Spoiler :
      And it's 80%+ without the fortify bonus or with CR2 - a walk in the park...
    • I take the city with one loss. I cry for 10 minutes and then play on. Move 3 Praetorians towards Moscow.

    Turn 92 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • I kill one Archer in the forest 1S of Moscow at 95% odds. His capital has only 2 Archers in it :hmm:. Looks like he's still in expansion mode. Didn't expect him to be such a pushover TBH. Even without metals that's lame.
      Spoiler :

    Turn 93 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • Peter pops a great scientist
    • Moscow's fall is due next turn - 2 Archers and 1 HA "guarding" it now. I leave St. Pet. undefended as he can't reach it in one turn :
      Spoiler :
    With Praetorians vs. Archers/HAs, instead of moving all of your troops on the tile with the highest defensive bonus it's more beneficial to spread them around and cut road so that you can leave some cities undefended. This allows you to use less units.

    Turn 94 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • Code of Laws finished. This means...
      Spoiler :
      First to philo. Taoism founded in Ravenna (3S of Rome), I could use the Missionary for scouting or bait, but here bait isn't really needed and I'd rather scout later and save on maintenance. So I try to spread it to Rome and it fails :undecide:. I cry for 10 more minutes and play on. Research set to Civil Service.
    • Getting some gold from our close-to-friendly Boudica :
      Spoiler :
      Everyone else has Alpha and I want the cash. I don't get any diplo penalty with Asoka although she's his worst ennemy. I don't understand the logic of that :confused:
    • Boudica is apparently kicking Asoka's arse. She took a city already. Asoka can't be bribed off ("We'd love to, but you'll have to contact them), whereas Boudi modestly tells us "we'd rather win the game, tyvm". I enjoy her optimism :lol:
    On a more serious note, the previous statement appears when the AI you're trying to bribe off has more than twice your land area iirc.
    • Back to our Russian friend, no more reinforcements in Moscow. I take it with one loss.
      Spoiler :
      Extremely good spot, even though Peter's a tree hugger :
      Spoiler :
      Even has an Academy :old:
    • Most of my troops move North to Yaroslavl, not wasting any time here. It's on a flatland with 2 archers 1 HA and 1 chariot. Still a dangerous wandering russian GS :
      Spoiler :
    • Great General born in Rome this turn.

     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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  15. Lain

    Lain King

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Messages:
    712
    Ok, here is my 375 BC (T100) update. Yeah, I always wait until you post date, then I play until I reach it too. Don't think people usually do it like that, but it's called "shadow" after all, not "sun" :D

    Spoiler :

    Let's start with a small curiosity. I realized that I am not getting the crabs as a resource here... until I reach Sailing.



    Traded Horseback Riding for Alpha, and then Alpha for Iron Working, among other things. And look what we find:



    Then I go and gift Alpha to the ladies. They seem unimpressed though. Oh and @Pedro78, I met Boudica only recently so only -2 from religion -> was still cautious.





    Still pondering whether to attack Justi or Peter. Will send the first units out to explore and find out what's going on. But Peter doesn't have ivory, so...



    Which is why I trade him Horseback Riding for last 2 turns of Math. Don't like it, since he is a guy who will trade techs around once 10% of other people know it. He could spread it to Justi, whom I might attack. But I figure that facing War Elephants isn't the biggest disaster ever. Furthermore I don't mind them building Horse Archers, and... every turn counts etc. If I can attack 2 turns earlier, could be the difference between facing Archers and Longbows in a big fight.



    Unit spam can begin. Some micro, but I don't go "all out". Working 4 scientists total, not whipping away too many cottages etc. I have one city dedicated to 5XP War Elephants, but with iron available it's not the biggest priority anymore...





    And so the scouting begins. Peter...



    or Justi? Going for this guy has some distinct advantages... 1) I can see what he is teching (getting alert on possible Longbows) and 2) he built the Buddhist shrine... worth at least 20 gpt already. So if he stays away from stuff, he is probably going to get it. And 3), get rid of his annoying culture.



    Got a Great Scientist in Rome and thought for a long time. Next useful thing I can bulb is Philosophy, and that is still 10 turns away. Also, Philosophy won't actually be useful for a long time (I want to switch into Paci after the war, also trade bait etc). So I make an academy instead, Cumae will get the 2nd GS in ~20 turns, that should be good enough. I don't have to be first to Philo, so... generally I didn't trade many techs at this point. Could have traded HRB+Math for Monarchy and Calendar, but I thought... it's not useful now and no need to speed up anyone. Justi still lacking HBR, self-teched Construction though.



    I was first to Construction (not a blazing tech pace, that's for sure), Justi got it soon after though. Now going Currency, because attacking Justi means that I have to take some precaution vs a Peter bribe. Beg 1 gold, maybe bribe him in.. also, here is the weakly guarded shrine city :thumbsup: note Justi going for Currency too, the punk.



    Last look at diplo before declaring. Only Peter likes him...



    So I waited for Currency before declaring, begged 1 gold (can't bribe Peter with anything! :() and declared on Justi with this. Give shrine.



    Here is the tech situation when I attacked. (I took Currency for Monarchy with Bismarck here). But I don't see a reason to get Calendar, for example. Boudi is plotting, most likely on Asoka. She has jumbos. If I give her HBR+Construction now, who knows, she might stomp the Asoka wimp and there is just no need for that. Been very careful with trades so far.



    Speaking of Asoka, I got him to do something surprisingly useful. I didn't plan for it, because he has the same religion as Justi. But only cautious due to peaceweight or whatever, so this became possible...



    I'm starting to put hammers into a Forum in my capital. It will probably become my GP farm, so maybe this UB can actually be useful. Also, I have ivory+silk (trade, and in my own territory soon), so it's 150 :hammers: for 2 :)



    So, this is the fight for the Buddhist shrine. Bombarding would take 3+ turns. Not worth it. I bombard with 3 pults, then throw the remaining 3 straight at him. One even survives.



    Lost one CR1 Praet, the remaining ones win their fights easily. And here is the jackpot. Could make peace right now and it's already so worth it. Wouldn't mind his capital either though. Bonus points for Statue of Zeus, which he just built recently. Yeah, if I left him alone, he might have flipped my city at some point.. and he is going for Theology after Literature, good guy.



    Next, I teched Code of Laws (intending Civil Service follow-up and Philo bulb in... 12 turns).



    Peter could be bribed out. I am considering it.



    Bought sugar from Peter for 14 gpt (of course it became available just the turn after I sold him crabs for 4 gpt.....), because when the shrine comes online I am basically swimming in cash. And capital was unhappy, we don't want that. Healing up a bit, waiting for a few more units and then pushing for Constantinople (has Stonehenge).

    Overview:



    Maybe it's wrong to wait and heal, but I am only at 0.8 at Justi power and I don't want to get whacked because I was too greedy. I could push with this right now, but well... don't feel comfortable.



     

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    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
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  16. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    Spoiler Writeup to Turn 100 (375 BC) - 2/2 :

    Turn 95 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • I know Bismark ain't no tech whore, but I really can't explain that :
      Spoiler :
      Everyone has Masonry, how can this message still be displayed?
    • Should be able to take Yaroslavl next turn if Vladimir doesen't add another Archer :
      Spoiler :

    Turn 96 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • No more defenders in Yaroslavl = instant kill.
      Spoiler :
      Not a single loss.
    • A Praetorian checks for the "iron city" and...
      Spoiler :
      Nothing. Except for a heavily defended city :D
    • My SuperMedic is finally online :
      Spoiler :
    • For now I've still captured 0 workers, I would've liked a little more. have only 3 workers atm, will need a lot of them fairly soon. On the bright side every captured city has kept the granary. No clue where his great scientist went, let's hope he doesen't build an academy in a stupid spot...

    Turn 97 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • I "gift" HBR to Isabella (for 40 gold :D) as she isn't anyone's WE and I'd like to OB with her to build up diplo bonuses (probably should have done this earlier)
    • St. Pet. pacified. I'll 2whip a barracks there and will chop Praetorians as it's got a good amount of forests. This will lift some weight off my main cities, where whip anger is beggining to build up. It's a very strong city both short and long term, right now it's a nice boost to my research.
    • Right now there's only 2 archers in Novgorod so I move my Praets :
      Spoiler :

    Turn 98 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • Justinian gets Civil Service. I cry for yet another 10 minutes and play on.
    • Novgorod gets another Archer, it might be tricky. I have 4 ~80HP CR2 Praets and one healed CR1 Praet ready to attack next turn, I'll have to wait one more turn if he gets one more Archer :
      Spoiler :

    Turn 99 :eekdance:
    Spoiler :

    • Some more gold from our optimistic friend :
      Spoiler :
      Thought she might need some help to deal with scary Asoka :lol:
    • I take the iron city with 1 loss :
      Spoiler :
    • No reinforcements in Novgorod. Take it without a single loss !
      Spoiler :
      Note that I also get 2 workers for free :drool:
    • I can see Rostov not on a hill with only 1 Archer and 1 HA defending it. Can take it in 2-3 turns depending on ennemy reinforcements :
      Spoiler :

    Turn 100 :deadhorse:
    Spoiler :

    • I sell horsies to my Spanish friend :
      Spoiler :
      Not much for horses, but I don't need those and it's better than nothing.
    • I'll take Rostov on turn 102



    Wow that took a long time :lol: -- I'll comment more about my postition, good/bad choices and strategy tomorrow. If you have any questions please ask, that's what detailed writeups are for ! You can also speculate on whether the game's winnable or not :p

    Now it's time for me to read @Lain 's writeup :crazyeye:

    Edit : damn 30 screenshots per post limit !
     

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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  17. Lain

    Lain King

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Messages:
    712
    I like how we both ended up attacking the other target (contrary to plans) though :lol:. Nicely done, opportunities like that have to be used. Very ruthless.
     
  18. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    Omg I got close to killing myself when the forum didn't show the second post's pictures...

    Can't really sleep so I'll comment a bit.

    Yup I thought the same thing, but there are several reasons why it ended up being better for the both of us :
    Spoiler :

    Your game's Justinian got a Shrine, mine got a GSpy. He probably build SY... still can't see what he's doing. Your city placements made it better to attack Justinian as well. Better buddhism spread in your game. Not to mention the minor detail that Peter did have iron :D
    The combination of Academy + Shrine is pretty nice.
    I might have to use MP to prevent some of my cities from revolting to Justinian in the late game.

    Did you consider teching Feud and Vassaling Justy? Not sure what this would be worth... Anyways if he's going for theology now you should be in a good position.

    Are you whipping your cities 5-3 (except the capital)? The 2 scientists in Cumae look like a big drain on production though. But maybe you feel confident taking out Justy either way? Idk, I have low experience with this kind of war. Why so many Praets promoted to C1 instead of CR1? And what are your plans when you're done with the Byzantine? Kill everyone with cuirs pangaea-style or new world settling etc? I'm kinda curious of how early one can get space on this map... (And I've never won space on deity :lol:)

    Oh and yup Praets vs Archers is pretty ugly. Only lost 3 guys so far.


    I think the fish thing happens because it isn't connected to any of your cities via culture (you need to have a continuous path of water tiles in your culture for a resource to be connected to your trade network)

    Edit : oh and you have a warrior doing nothing to the far SE of your empire :D
     
  19. Lain

    Lain King

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Messages:
    712
    Yeah can't sleep either

    Spoiler :

    You wondered about that -4 worst enemy trade vs -1 etc... it depends on how long you have known an AI. Same reason why 10 gold gives +4 fair trade immediately. I am guessing you've known Asoka for a longer time than Boudica. So he doesn't mind so much.

    I didn't really consider Feudalism. Might even make peace after taking some more and then go for Peter :D. But more realistically, have 8 strong cities and go Cuirs. Not sure about settling the new world.

    Trying to only whip away mines, not cottages. Though got a bit nervous about not enough siege and did it in sheep city now. With Construction rushes I try to maintain a decent economy. Got a bit more experience with it now. Keep options open by teching at the same time. Could take his capital, sign peace (he would probably be "pleased" still because religion) and just play normally. Caste+Pacifism etc. Probably Cuirs.

    A few Prets are C1 because I had to clean up stray units he sent into my territory... and stack defense, I guess.

    Oh yeah, the warrior SE was for fogbusting coast. I am expecting barb galley any time, have pre-build a Galley in my capital. Will probably die though and then I lose all my sea food. Should do something about that.
     
  20. Snowbird

    Snowbird Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Messages:
    301
    Well, don't want trade yet is factored % of known civs with tech and buildings unlocked(GWall, walls, Mids). My rough guess would be that Mids are not built yet. (and that is not so dumb on AI part for a change).
     

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