52 shades of Sid - a story of deities (closed)

[Pedro78]

You wondered about that -4 worst enemy trade vs -1 etc... it depends on how long you have known an AI.

Oh yeah thanks I forgot about that. By the way do you know if the "you have traded with our worst ennemies" penalty goes away after some turns? I've never really watched out for this...

Oh yeah, the warrior SE was for fogbusting coast

But the warrior is in your culture, so in that case it doesen't add anything to the fogbustin already done by your culture
@Snowbird

Spoiler :

I know that it depends on how many civs he met know the tech, but here we're at 100%. What didn't know is that even when all the AIs he met have Masonry, he still won't trade it, meaning the fact that Mids aren't built yet push Bismark's trading threshold (70% base) strictly above 100%

 

[Fippy]

Masonry is flagged as super important
Besides wonders, it's also walls (AIs are coded to value them highly) and counts as hmm..partly war-tech.
Some AIs will also not trade Construction, if everybody else knows it already. Or Engi.

 

[Pedro78]

More details about the turn 100 position.

Spoiler Info screenies :

Diplo


Tech


Units killed / lost

Spoiler What I did wrong :

• I am researching Civil Service, which won't be needed for a very long time. On the other hand nobody has Aesthetics yet so I could have gone for Music for the free GA. Might be too late for that now so I'll finish CS and then see. Another good option was MC-Machinery-Compass-Optics, as I want to explore the New World I'll probably be able to trade for MC though.
• I'm building too many troops. I have 23 Praets left, which is more than enough to finish Peter off.

Spoiler Future plans :

• After CS, revolt into Bureau + HR. Build a bunch of workers to get my new cities contributing ASAP. If I still have a shot at Music I'll tech Aest-Lit-Music, get massive fail gold from Shwedagon and build the NE. If I can't win Music I'll just tech to Optics, then bulb Edu and Lib Astro. Not many bulbs required as I'll have very good bpt, so most GPP will be GMs.
• After Astro settle the New World and beeline Communism.
• Try and get a decent space date

 

[Pedro78]

Update to turn 115 (1 AD):

Spoiler Write-up to turn 115 (1 AD) :

Turn 100 –

Spoiler :

- I have more than enough Praets so I start building a couple of workers : I have A LOT of tiles to improve with the new cities coming online and imminent HR + Calendar resources

- I notice something fairly inconvenient : – Peter’s HA is about to take my jumbo city. Thankfully I have a bunch of overflow from last Praet and can 1T-build a spear :

Turn 101 –

Spoiler :

- Mids built. 21 fail gold yay

- Peter’s HA attacks and withdraws from combat. I take him out at 100% odds.

- I decide to attack Rostov on this turn. 3 Praets vs 3 Archers but 2 of my guys have CR2 and it’s on flatland… Look at those odds –
I take it. HA can’t reach me on the next turn so the rest of my guys move back.

- GG born. I hesitate for a minute. I decide to save him for two 6 movement galleons (7 after circumnavigation). Will be useful to settle the new world.

- I get Mono and Calendar from Boudica – need to start improving those beauties.
Get a -2 diplo hit from Isabella in return.

- Yekaterinburg lightly defended and not on a hill.
6 Praets coming in to take it.

- I start on a galley in Rome. First reason is to improve the wheat in Antium. Second reason is there’s almost always islands to the North of Terra maps. Peter might have settled some of them and I want to take him out completely. Can’t really afford the unhappiness.

Turn 102 –

Spoiler :

- Isabella’s a pain in the ass.
Another -1 diplo hit.

- A lonely Russian worker up for grabbing

Turn 103 --

Spoiler :

- The slaughter of Yekaterinburg may now begin :

0 losses and 2 workers. The 2 unused guys immediately move to the next city – Smolensk

Why doesen’t he at least build walls? That’s not even funny.

Turn 104 –

Spoiler :

- Peter gets 1 more Archer in Smolensk, delaying its fall by one turn

Turn 105 –

Spoiler :

- Bismark asks for a favor

Certainly my friend. He’s now pleased with me.

- Civil Service. Revolt to HR + Bureau. Research set to Compass. Cannot triple switch to HR + Bureau + OrgRel with only one turn of anarchy. So I skip OrgRel

- Peter got a fifth archer in Smolensk, but that doesen't save him

Not a single loss.

- Heading to Vladivostok. Five Archers here but flatland and no walls. If someone has the explanation for the absence of walls I’d be glad to hear it. When I HA rush it seems like the AI has walls in every city.

2 more workers 2S of Vladivostok but no way to grab them, will have to get them in his last city. 9 workers right now.

Turn 106 –

Spoiler :

- I hook up Silk and trade for more happiness with my Celtic friend.

This, combined with the switch to HR, solves many problems.

- Peter did indeed settle an island


- He got a 6th Archer in Vladivostok. Wait one turn and take it.

Turn 107 –

Spoiler :

- Now it’s 8 Praets vs 7 Archers. Not gonna wait. We’ll see who will prevail.


- Wounded CR3 attacks first.

Others are wounded CR2 or healthy CR1 but only get ~75%

- Once again – not a single loss...

...and a free worker… and 3 more soon-to-be-mine workers :


- Only 2 archers in Orenburg. Galley done in Rome but I’ll take 10 turns of peace for Metal casting after taking it.

- I didn’t realize, but Peter built a stupid academy in Novgorod…

PHI leaders always do dumb things with their extra great people. By the way Justin isn’t any smarter than the others (even though he isn’t PHI). He built the Christian shrine instead of building the Buddhist one… And still doesn’t have the AP. Now Isabella has Theology and might build it…

- Whipping courthouses in every captured city as soon as they are pacified. 2pop courthouses are SO worth it. (2pop for +4gpt is a very good deal, even for +2gpt is okay). The EPs will eventually come in handy as well. (Steal Aesthetics from Justinian and mass-failgold Shwedagon?)

Turn 108 –

Spoiler :

- Get some gpt from my Byzantine friend


- Nothing new, troops moving towards Orenburg

Turn 109 –

Spoiler :

- Compass. Resarch set to Machinery.

- Time to kill the two miserable Archers in Orenburg and make peace.

Take it but lose a CR3 Praet. Hit my head against the wall for 10min and play on.
Now 14 workers.

- Get a fairly juicy peace deal from Peter


- Paying 27gpt unit cost. Decide to keep 6 Praets for the barb city (on a hill) and 4 for Peter’s last city (island cities don’t have much garrison usually). The rest will serve as MP.

- A glimpse at the tech situation

Looks under control for now.

Turn 111 –

Spoiler :

- I take the barb city and accidentally raze it… Too lazy to reload the autosave and it’s full of jungle anyways, I have better uses for my worker turns right now so I don’t reload.

- Boudica just took Lahore from the Indian – which frees up the banana for Rostov. Will be a great GP farm during GA.


- I DoW Asoka. He’s not teching at all and he’s dead anyways, I don’t care about Boudica becoming a monster right now (I’ll be a bigger monster), I’d much rather have her like me. This gives me -1 with Bismark but he’s still pleased.

- I get Machinery for Compass from Justinian – at least 2T earlier Optics.

- I disband some more Praets. Only keep 4 CR3 guys to go after Peter’s last city. I definitely overbuilt unit in this game.

- At this point I think that I might simply self-tech Astro and lib either Sci Meth or Communism, as I’ll be late on the GS anyways

Turn 112 –

Spoiler :

- I beg 40 gold from Justinian, which will allow me to get Optics one turn earlier. Tip : each turn you gain “points” for begging with each AI. The higher your power ratio with the AI, the more points you gain. So you can beg higher sums of gold when you keep a high power ratio.

Nothing new between T112 and 115… boring micro…

Turn 115 –

Spoiler :

- Optics. 3 caravels coming next turn, 2 explorers ready. 1 more Caravel coming in 2 turns.

- Empire overview.
North :


South :


- Thanks to Courthouses, I’m finally catching up in EPs with Justy now – 568 vs 509 EPs (in my favor). In 2-3 turns I should be able to see what he’s researching. Also sent a Spy to Thessalonica to eventually steal something from there. Him getting a GSpy was a pure PITA.

- Not sure what to do next. Self-teching Astro is really long, especially as you don’t get the 20% research bonus, the tech having no direct prereqs. It might take as long as 15 turns to self-tech it, by then I can almost have lib… Will have to think a little.

- Moscow is building the Palace because I plan to build Oxford there – lots of forests and strong long term potential. Too bad Peter didn’t build any cottages for me there.

Will play some more today, I’d really like to wrap the game up this week because then I’ll be out for the weekend.

Edit - Does anyone know if barb cities can spawn on a continent where there is 0 Human/AI cities?

Re-edit -

Spoiler :

Made some maths, I'll launch a GA on T125 and will have 2 GS on T131 + 1 GM on T132. With proper management I can most likely have Astro + Paper on T131. Then I'll lib Sci Meth or Communism depending on Justinian's tech rate.

Re-re-edit : Oh and Isabella did indeed build the AP (didn't notice it in the first place, but was on T 115)

 

[Lain]

New World will have barbs running around. Not sure about cities though.

My 1 AD update

Spoiler :

Considered this deal here, but decided against it. Don't think that I need any help at this point.



Next turn he started plotting and declared on Asoka soon after. Also some action elsewhere. Boudica on Asoka as expected, and Bismarck attacked Justinian somehow. Asoka pulled him in?



After some healing and reinforcements arriving, I go for his capital next.



The punk sabotaged my elephants... also, Taoism founded by tech leader Boudica



There are more units in Constantinople than I'd like to see, but I have reinforcements coming aswell. Have to bombard though.



Meanwhile, I built a galley in anticipation of barb galleys. Ended up scouting another future city spot.



Because of the tough fight coming up, I go and use the GG on 4 catapults for CR2 on each of them.



Battle goes pretty well, can't take it in one turn though.





But it falls on the next one.



100 BC is a big turn for mighty Rome, reached Civil Service and bulbed Philo.



Since I don't technically need HR yet, I revolt to Bureau+Paci instead. Will get a GP, start a golden age and farm GS. Teching Nationalism now. Planning for Cuirs.



Meanwhile in the Justi war, I split stacks / formed a 2nd one and threaten his next two cities.





Selling old tech for money to keep going. Cheer up, buttercup.



Will probably try to cap Justi after all. Growing capital and two other cities now. Setting up for golden age. GP for golden age will come from here.



Slower progress here and some problems to solve later, but a reasonable position I think.

 

[Lain]

Played a bit further. No update yet, just a question...

Spoiler :

Anyone want to explain to me why he won't capitulate here?





I decided to stay at war because this stops peace vassaling for now (Peter friendly with me, won't backstab). Then, few turns later, he just changed his mind. Nothing happened, no unit died or anything.

 

[Pedro78]

@Lain looking good !

Spoiler :

Don't think you'll have to go any further than cuirs to win this game, especially with this many cities.
Not sure about the capitulation thing. I know his power must be inferior to the world average, but here that shouldn't be the issue, so I'll leave the answer to someone more experienced

I've played to 450AD aswell (Oxford coming in soon, Lib SciMeth in 3 turns, began settling the new world... a different kind of game). Will play a couple more turns and update.

Edit - Oh and there are barb cities in the New World indeed

 

[Fippy]

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/capitulation-rules.500886/#post-12720814

Probably Asoka encouraged Justi that he's still fine

 

[Imploding]

Great stuff guys! When in Rome, do like Romans... Conquer!

Anyone want to explain to me why he won't capitulate here?

I have been wondering the same.. and I have had a couple of bad cases of wont capitulateitus and it's just not that fun.. So I have tried to dig a little..

Spoiler War.. what is it good for? Capitulation :

I wish i could make sense of the Capitulation rules myself. As far as i understand you have to meet a set of circumstances for the option to be available. The vassal power modifier for that leader is one.

In Justin's case its:

• Vassal Power Modifier: 20 (from -20 to 50).

Which I get to mean. you need at least 1.2 score above Justin.. and that requirement you have with your current score. Then I found this post.. which I'm unknown in how kossin got that information.. but the war success might be a trigger point?.

For a civ to capitulate you need:
-twice their power
-twice their land
-40 more war success against them

Obviously this doesn't work against already vassals.

War success:
4 points for units killed while attacking
3 points for units killed when attacking
10 points for taking cities
1 point for workers/settlers iIrc

Say you take 1 city, kill 10 units and lose 12 units.

That's 10+10*4-12*3 = 14 war success... you need more success.

Being a land neighbor (share 8 tiles in a border) helps too, there's an additional penalty if your land is too far away.

Not sure if this helps?..

Then i find this "tip" from a indept explanation about the vassal system that briefly touch the point on capitulation: link: https://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/game-mechanics/explaining-the-vassal-system/

"A general piece of Warmongering Advice: the first Civ you meet isn’t going to be the best candidate for Vassal-ing. Generally speaking the first Civ you run across is probably going to be your best bet for early elimination and/or outright acquisition. If you’re skullthumping your neighbor with early swordsman (or earlier with axmen, warriors, etc.) then you aren’t going to be Vassal-ing anybody anyway since you probably haven’t got Feudalism. Therefore, if you do go to war finish the other guy off completely, no sense of having some enemy out on the field for the better part of eternity with a grudge just waiting to come back to haunt you."

Thats just a general advice without any explanation besides.. "you probably wont have feudalism".. But i guess. but anyone that have read the xml files.. and give general advice must have some reason for it..

Well.. this turned out to be a little more quasi-science about capitulation than i expected. I do not have a clear sense of why some Ai's wont capitulate.. even at heavy loss and grossly out scored.

I have shamefully hid everything in a spoiler.. read at your own risk

 

[Fippy]

Stick with Tachywaxon's posts for this stuff, she did not guess but searched thru the code and spent lots of time on that.

Oops forgot, she changed to Manco Capac.

 

[Pedro78]

Okay I've played a little further and lost all motivation. Took hours to plan for GA + GPP + building Oxford. Ended up building Oxford in one turn on T136 (520AD), only 5 turns after Edu. The problem is I neglected almost everything else as I was only focused on this aspect of the game, my beaker rate sucks (540bpt with Oxford, Oxford city only 129bpt ), and I'm on the verge of losing lib...

Lesson learned : don't build Oxford early unless you have an already developped cottage capital. On a Terra settling the new world is far more profitable than building universities (one university is 3 settlers with an IMP leader). Game is still "won" but I need to take a break.

Only one screenshot of the coolest (and wrongest) thing I got to do in this game so far :

Spoiler :

(I had an iron pop on this turn or the turn before iirc)

Edit: Oh and playing Space takes such a huge amount of planning/micro, especially on a Terra map
Probably should have gone for cuirs instead, game would be over by 1000AD

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ Aren't you over-stressing your misplay ?
It seems like a point of very little importance in the grand scheme of things.

Sure, this particular Oxford wasn't worth the effort you put in. But the city is gonna develop eventually.
Sure, you may miss the Liberalism race, however, this doesn't make or break a game.
Does your research really "suck" ? Doesn't seems so, at a glance, and it's sure to pick up.
Don't you have, like, an excellent tech position, Education, Astronomy ?

Besides, your tech level matters mostly in relation to that of the AIs.
Do you have the production capability to invade another dude ? Probably, yes.
If you lack a tech before pumping military, then focus on growth and infrastructure in the meantime...

Bottom line : you're not forced to go for space. You can backdoor into a military victory if you want to.

 

[Pedro78]

@BornInCantaloup Thanks for your comment. Of course I'm not forced to go for space but...

Spoiler :

I've spent a lot of time microing things to get a good space date, and these mistakes will cost me ~10 turns on the victory date. Now of course I can press end turn 30 times and attack with tanks in 13xx AD (probably earlier with some micro) and win conquest, but that isn't nearly as pretty as a 16xx AD space win is it?

You're right about everything you say, but this isn't the reason why I'm pissed off

Now of course I will pick up the game and play it out, except the spaceship will probably land 17xx and not 16xx. Could also replay from 1AD but that's kinda contrary to the spirit in which I launched this thread

 

[sampsa]

Don't worry, Pedro78. You have learned something in this game, and that is what matters, not whether you land your spaceship in 17th or 18th century.

 

[Lain]

Yeah, I hope you don't lose motivation for too long . Still a great game. I can relate though, planning something for a long time and then it doesn't work out. I became more pragmatic because of stuff like that. I try to get the win and that's good enough. I don't plan for perfect games anymore, just do enough to get the win. Because what if some AI comes from the other side of the map and declares on you? Already costs a few turns of slavery to deal with that. 5-hour-plan ruined.

It goes both ways though, because you probably didn't plan for 100% Praet rush from the beginning. That's why it's hard to compare games. It's still entertaining, but stuff happens and things go in different directions.

Best we can do is win every game. So let's finish this one in style and move to the next one

 

[Fippy]

My view is that i only play for entertainment (now), takes some time until we lose that "deity rush" feeling thou
We are playing against AIs, we will not win any awards and all we can gain is good times.

Every mistake makes you more experienced, more so if they are really annoying
If you knew how often i messed up with Ox and those 1k Uni hammers..but that contributes to setting better priorites in all aspects of Civ4, not just when Ox lures again.

 

[Lain]

1010 AD

Spoiler :

Next 2 cities of Justinian fell easily. Not sure what to do with him yet. Meanwhile Asoks caps to Peter.



A bit silly how many units he has in a useless tundra city, but ok



Getting a GP from here for a golden age soon (after war and cities coming online preferably). Remember I am in Bureau+Paci



I thought that, for sure, he would capitulate after the next city.



Really need the happiness from HR and a bit late on bulbs already, so I start the GA immediately. Trying to continue the war on the cheap. Because making peace and watching him peace vassal is just not an option for me.



Meanwhile I wasted most of my catapults on Justinian, and he still wouldn't cap... so I tried rebuilding some, but 475 AD he saw the light and gave in. Not taking Machinery because of Lib bulb.



During the GA I generated 2x GS (1x Edu, 1x Lib) and 1 .... Great Artist who was supposed to be a merchant. Oh well. Boudi is crushing Bismarck, I join war for some diplo points.

Tech situation around 520 AD



Boudi caps Bismarck, I gift her Music to get her to pleased. She randomly likes Justi already, so I am safe for now.



Gives me time to move palace and focus on rebuilding a bit



Peter is my target for Cuirs, because his core is really easy to access. And also... Asoka broke free. Why? Probably because he settled all these islands and suddenly has 11 cities



After Lib bulb I revolt to Slavery, Theology and Vassalage.



Building/Whipping some jumbos here and there, but lack of Great Merchant made it a bit iffy, so I hurry to Gunpowder instead. Friendly Peter provides the last part of it.



Boudi declares on Peter, happy days. Hope she can keep his stack occupied here.



I trade Philo+Education for Chemistry from Peter (monopoly tech) before attacking, because why not. Then I go in with 2 stacks, #1



#2



Destroyed roads and built spy to watch Peter's stack constantly in case he moves it towards me. But it never happens. So 5 turns later I have captured 6 of his cities, including Moscow and basically his complete core.



Meanwhile, Boudi's and Peter's stacks clashed in the west. I saw that she didn't have enough to take the city, so I let them fight. But I needed that to lower his power to where he might capitulate.



Just to be safe, I bribed Boudi to make peace after this. She has other problems anyway since Asoka randomy declared on her.

I capture another core city and he is ready to capitulate.



I think Boudi is next, since she is the strongest and a bit behind. Easier to catch her now.



20-city-empire



Will see if it can be ended with just Cuirs.

 

[Pedro78]

Really appreciate these comments from both of you, gets me motivated

I'll play on to 1000 AD today to catch up with you, Lain.

 

[Pedro78]

Just a quick update to where I've stopped before I play any further - need to rethink many things...

Spoiler :

At T115 I take a break and decide to plan my GPP carefully so I can get a golden age, 3 GS and 1 GM. Switch into CS + Pacifism scheduled for T119 - 2T of anarchy, that hurts, but not sure how it could have been any better without the MoM, as I need 10 turns of GPP generation.

GS #1 comes from Rome on T126 and launches a golden age

On turn 128 (325 AD) I get Astro and upgrade galleys (can't whip Galleons when in Caste System...), one turn @0% research to get cash to upgrade more. I use my stored GG to get 1 free upgrade and 2 6 movement galleons (7 after circumnavigation). Paper is only 2T of research so it all times well with the GP plan.

On turn 129 I put one bulb into Edu - the second GS will bulb PP, better avoiding overlap as with high population bulbs give more beakers :


In the meantime a brave Roman general named Hernan Cortes (for once the GG's default name fits well with his mission lol) sails away to the new world with a total of 2 settlers, 2 workers and 2 Praetorians. 1 more settler and Praet and 4 workers will follow up next turn. Some workboats also on their way to the new world to improve the seafood.


Turn 131 -
Education done. GS #3 born and part-bulbs (~1790) into Printing Press

Turn 132 -
Justinian is going for Education, so I realize that I won't be able to lib Communism. As you might notice from the screenshot Rome was running scientists (changed my mind while running merchants). The idea was to double-bulb SciMeth with the incoming GS from Rome and Moscow, and lib Communism. ToA city is far away (German city, probably Berlin), and a GM would take ages to travel so in this case GS bulb outperforms GM trade mission.

Turn 133 -
GM born in Rome (luckily). Switch to Slavery + OrgRel.

Turn 134 -
I chop the Palace in Moscow. End of golden age, slider at 0% waiting for Oxford. Rome whips a university while it still has the +50% from Bureaucracy.

Turn 135 -
All 5 remaining universities whipped (including in Moscow 11-7 or 12-8 I don't remember exactly). Sometimes whip 10-5 without a forge... That hurts.

Turn 136 -
Oxford chopped in one turn in Moscow.

Turn 137 -
Turn up slider - I realize that building Oxford was dumb as I'm only doing 5xx bpt, I would be doing more had I not built Oxford and sacrificed so much population. Lib in 4 turns, Justy going for Lib (4).

Turn 138 -
Justy going for lib (2)

I stopped there. With some tile switches and building research in most of my cities I can get lib in 2 turns so it's "alright" (although very suboptimal as I have 1000+ gold. Soon I'll get circumnavigation and will sell my maps, which are worth 150+ gold at this point, so a lot of cash is coming in, GM also on his way... Building Oxford and delaying lib was such a waste. I also realized that I should have waited 2 more turns before going full-GPP mode, this would have allowed me to get one extra GM from the golden age (Moscow @496/600 GPP now)
- 3 cities settled in the new world a few turns ago, one of which I forgot to settle on the coast so it doesen't get any trade route, and another one with the only food in the second ring - I forgot that I wouldn't be able to run an artist anymore at the end of the GA and I don't have Music.
- Galleons are coming back but I have no settlers/workers/MP to board them with. As I said, some planning needed

^ That's a pretty terrible writeup, but it doesen't reflect smart play so there's no point in it to be very detailed . I'll upload a save when things are in better shape.

My brain is finally done processing the fact that taking hits like that, which are not RNG-dependant but completely my fault, is a part of the learning experience, so I'm not pissed off anymore

Edit - I'm out for the weekend so I'll only pick up the game next monday or tuesday (sorry ), @Lain if you want to wrap your game up, don't wait for me I'm too slow

 

[Lain]

Update on my finish (1520 AD)

Spoiler :

My next target is Boudica, who has lots of units running around, but is also at war with Asoka. Time for another sneaky backstab.





When she moves her stack into Indian territory, it is time to strike.



Fail moment of the game... barb must have spawned on a road outside of the city which I left undefended... fortunately I can recapture it before Peter takes it back.



I make some nice progress against Boudica, but of course she swings back with her stack, which could do some damage on a first strike.



Solution: Destroy all the roads, so the best she can do is move the stack on the hill next turn...



And sure enough, that's what she does. I still have a bunch of catapults left from the Justinian war. Good time to use them.







After that the war is a formality. The captured Russian cities are coming online and providing a huge production spike, whipping Cuirs from everywhere.

Last big battle. Forking both cities, a few defenders moved away on the interturn.





One more and she capitulates. Next I attack Isabella/Bismarck, who have a defensive pact... Asoka has Rifling so I want to take him last with Cavalry.

Isabella has some decent army and Grenadiers, so I chose to wait for a few Cavalry upgrades before pushing.





Not many interesting details to report. A few cities fall and she gives in. Bismarck next.





More for fun than anything else, I send a few settlers into the New World and liberate a colony.



Asoka is easy enough. He has Rifling, but half of his cities are on islands, so can't really help with defense. And I have massive amounts of Cavalry by now.



Annoyingly, he won't cap after I take all his cities on the landmass. So there is some delay with shipping units. 10 turns or so. Domination limit not that close, so has to be Conquest...



But he sees the error of his ways soon enough.



GG









Thanks for the fun map. Good to gain some experience with Elepult into Cuirs. A few months ago I could not have done this.