(59) Proposal: Give authority science through producing units instead of for gaining cities

[josh4]

Hey, I hope I'm not to late to post a proposal, I registered specifically to post this.

Proposal:

Remove science from Imperium policy (free settler and culture from gaining cities remains).​

Add science for producing military units, naval and land, 20% of production on Discipline policy.​

Rationale:

The first problem is currently Authority AIs are not competitive because of their low science and may actually become the easiest to conquer in the mid-game cause of their outdated units. Situations when an authority AI conquers nothing are common. The second problem is the current structure of Authority policy tree: gaining yields for success, is inherently better for a player who will always outplay AIs in war micromanagement and is a simple win-more mechanic. Proposed change will address both as it will give Authority AIs a lot more science cause they have a bonus military cap and they lose and recreate more units than the player. It will not give a lot of buff for authority human players cause play to lose a units and retrain them for science is not viable as you need to build actual buildings which give you production, culture, specialists, etc., and as human ways of winning war is to keep units alive and get them as high promoted as possible, throwing them away is never a better option. It is also a more realistic, while culture for conquering or settling new lands is understandable as propaganda success and source of national legends and history and mythos, science is more realistically gained by engineering and designing trials and errors of military production, from the Roman naval boarding devices, to German and Soviet tanks which battlefield and logistic limitations informed new designs.​

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Sponsorship:

I sponsor this and can code this.​

 

[stii]

This seems reasonable. the bonus from conqueing cities was always rather overkill. No sure about the numbers but the idea seems fine.

 

[josh4]

I went for 20% as you will likely already have capped military supply by the time of adopting Discipline, which usually will be your 5th policy, so it needs to be substantial enough to still be felt. It will be 20 for a swordsmen in late classical, 36 for a knight, 27 for a pikeman. You probably go from 15 to 25, or 20 to 30 units in medieval since gaining a 5th policy, so this will only give you science for those 10 new units. If you get more cities, this science will be offset by tech penalty. In medieval, let's say an authority AI gains around 300 for those ten new units instead of zero (for not conquering cities). If it has a war in which it loses 10 units and produces them, it is gaining around 600 . It's like a free tech in medieval. I think that's perfect.

 

[nekokon]

Personally I feel like this is just encouraging playing badly. If you want to simulate military advancement through warfare maybe give a small amount of science per engagement instead, but it would also buff human warmongers.
Or maybe giving science per level up scaling with level and era would also work, AIs get bonus to xp so it would benefits AIs more than human warmonger

 

[josh4]

Personally I feel like this is just encouraging playing badly.

It isn't. Getting science by throwing away units will never be nearly as good for a human as having highly promoted units. This change is mainly to give authority AIs a buff.

 

[Recursive]

Hey, I hope I'm not to late to post a proposal, I registered specifically to post this.

You are not. Today is the last day for this session.

 

[josh4]

You are not. Today is the last day for this session.

Thank you. I was really confused by the numbers, I thought maybe it will be deleted outright for not having a number, but I'm glad I gave it a shot.

 

[Rekk]

Please clarify which policy it is supposed to go on. Discipline isn't a policy in the Authority tree.

 

[josh4]

Please clarify which policy it is supposed to go on. Discipline isn't a policy in the Authority tree.

I was dead sure it is, but it's completely possible that's my brain what's dead. I meant 2 and happiness for garrisons and less maintenance for roads? Second in the right branch.

 

[Rekk]

Okay, that was what I thought you meant (it used to be Discipline not too many patches ago), but I was unsure. It seems like a weird place to put the ability, putting too many different abilities on one policy.

 

[josh4]

It's the only balanced place as it is 5th policy, we don't want this science earlier for a player. This policy is very weak as you won't have this garrisons nor extensive roads by this point, so it will actually do something imminent now.

 

[ma_kuh]

Can you also grant science for already produced military? Sort of like Progress's 75% credit for techs? Or is there no existing hook for that and therefore it would be hard to add?

 

[rkkn]

would it be more fitting on the finisher?

 

[stii]

Probably. The authority finisher is pretty unexciting currently.

 

[pineappledan]

This is going to result in much less science for human players, and you aren't going to get any science for your mercenary units, so a counter-synergy there.

I think this will make the tree much less viable for players.

 

[Vhozite]

Not a fan on this change for a couple reasons.

First is I agree this proposal seems far too lopsided in favor of the AI.

Second is I don’t like adding more science yields to units. Authority already gives science for kills, so getting science for simply making units just seems strictly better. If we are set on giving science for some kind of unit production I think a better solution is tying it to leveling up/promotions, since humans can at least compete in that area.

But as I said I’m not a fan of more unit based science and would rather the science be spread out to another area. Even If it’s something simple like a bit of (extra) science from Walls and Barracks

 

[CrazyG]

I like the goal of this proposal but I'm not sure its quite right.

The AI does struggle with authority and science (as a human you can struggle too if you don't declare war enough). I'd rather see something like science/culture to barracks.

 

[zeofig]

I think the science for founding cities is both fun and essential to early-game authority for human players. But the conquest science I wouldn't mind seeing changed.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal Sponsors: josh4.

(Sponsors have indicated that they are able and willing to perform the code changes required for this proposal if the community votes Aye on it. Other coders are free to sponsor this as well. A proposal without a sponsor will not advance to the Voting Phase.)