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5CC Cultral 20k, how?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Archbob, Jun 27, 2005.

  1. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Ok, I just achieved diplomatic victory with 5CC under Monarch. I was leading in culture with one city passing 10k, but I don't see how you guys do 20k cultral victory on 5CC. The tech pace is just so freakin fast on monarch and above that everyone(including me) starts building spaceships in the late 1600s. I might have been able to pull off a spaceship victory as well, but a win is a win.

    I had Great Library, Hanging Gardens, Oracle, obser, newton's and sistine chapel in one city also(also with some more modern wonders) and I still only hit 10k.

    I also have colosses, and shakespear's theatre and a few other but they weren't in the culture-whoring city cause I could not have beaten the computer to them if I put them in the same city.
     
  2. madviking

    madviking north american scum

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    I was up to 30k or something on an OCC...

    BUILD EVERYTHING!! Wait for improvments.
     
  3. Own

    Own Grasshoppah

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    On cheiftan, for kicks I raised game limit figures so that 20k was 50k and on a OCC I got it (was incredibly easy).
     
  4. Methos

    Methos HoF Quattromaster Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    You might want to look at 5CC Monarch International Spoiler Thread preferrably on page 2. Even though Tone won with a space victory he was originally going for a 20k with a 1796 estimated date. Both myself and Twonky are going for a 20k game with estimated wind dates around 17 and 18 something. It's possible and seems rather easy too me. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.
     
  5. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    On Chiefstan its not that difficult, because you have a significant advantage over the AI. But on Monarch, they have a production advantage over you so its alot harder. I could have done it, but the thing is, the tech advances way to fast. It was like 1650 and we already had built the apollo program.

    How do you guys do the cultral thing on Emperor and above?
     
  6. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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  7. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    I wasn't playing on a tiny or small map, I was playing 3 continents on a standard map, so conquest and domination where not within questions. Everyone has 4 times more cities than you so going to war wasn't smart.

    BTW, this is a regular CivIII game, without the expansions.
     
  8. Own

    Own Grasshoppah

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    Do you use capital or non-capital? If non-capital Egypt is the best, for early temples and palace prebuild. All 4 other cities should provide military police and workers for the 20k city, and also build military.
     
  9. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    I use Capital. I've seen all the incredible games, but they are done under easy levels of difficulty(like Chiefstan or warlord). Has anyone been able to do it at Emperor or Diety? Its not that I can't build the wonders, its just that the AI tech pace is too fast and we get to space race before I can actually culture up.
     
  10. Xerol

    Xerol Emperor

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    On Monarch, I'd try Archipelago with low water. Then you can keep a few civs at war with each other and slow the tech pace down so Space is out of the picture, at least for a while. I wouldn't start slowing it down until during or after the Late MA Wonder Rush, however, because you need to get those wonders in earlier. Also on an island you can probably do some effective warring + leader farming without facing much risk. Buy slaves at every opportunity and use them to line your coasts so no one can invade you until the end of the Industrial Age. (Regular workers cost upkeep, so that's not as good of an idea, plus you'd have to spend shields building them that could be used for other things.)
     
  11. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Well, next challenge is 5CC on emperor with the same conditions.
     
  12. Doc Tsiolkovski

    Doc Tsiolkovski Deity

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    I've won several Deity 20k games. No xCC, but all of them were real culture victories, not military games, with only a couple of cities. Last time I could build the FP in mid industrial, after a minor campaign to secure coal.

    On the higher levels, I prefer to use the capital. And the must-have wonder is the Colossus. Not for the culture - but for the commerce. Oracle and HGs are worthless in itself. But Colossus + Copes + Newtons = :).

    Note on Deity I for one was never able to grab Newton's and and Shakes'; they always end in some ugly cascade. But still, I win in mid 1800s.
    Preferred Civ: Spain.
    Initial build sequence:
    Temple - Curragh - Settler - Collossus - MoM. After that, whatever available.

    Space Race? Even with only 5 cities, you could prevent that. They need Aluminium and Uranium. Any Civ without access to both cannot launch.
     
  13. shumble

    shumble Emperor

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    I won an Emperor 20K Cultural victory on the 'vanilla' level, but I did not use 5CC. I had 15 cities and while I didn't do a military victory, I did destroy the Babylonian and Russian capitals since they already had 9 spaceship parts each and I wanted to stop that. It took me until 2023 A.D. to finally get the victory. The UN was built in 1780 A.D. and spaceships were going up shortly after that. Without sending out a military, I would not have had a chance in that game to make it last until 2023 A.D.

    As far as choosing Spain and building Curraghs those options are not available in 'vanilla'. From the threads I've read, it seems to me that a Cultural victory is easier to get in the Upgraded Conquests version than it is in the 'vanilla' version.
     
  14. Gyathaar

    Gyathaar Warlock Retired Moderator GOTM Staff

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  15. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Mine on Monarch had conditions that made it a little more challenging. I did it without ever going to war with anyone. Thats right, no war, no conquest, always at peace with everyone.

    Of course, being only 5 cities, that means being extorted for money and tech alot. I was winning the space race, but Diplo was faster. UNn Built in 1690 A.D. and I won 1695.
     
  16. Doc Tsiolkovski

    Doc Tsiolkovski Deity

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    No. Quite the opposite - in VC3/PtW, a 20k victory required nothing but war. Get enough MGLs, and rush anything you want. Because of that, 20k really wasn't interesting in that versions.
    The only time I ever tried on Emperor ended with like 15k early medieval, with no AI city above 2000, at which point I lost interest in thatVC - it was nothing but dice rolls that mattered.
    You'd need a SGL for that in C3C. And even with a SCI Civs, you won't get more than a couple. With Spain, I never got more than one, if at all. And a SGL for Combustion hardly matters anyway.
     
  17. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

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    I have done it on a small Sid map with greece, wasn't a 5cc or no war game, I was mostly peaceful, the only wars were started when I was invaded in the late middle ages, and I don't think I captured any cities.

    Writeup: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=116874
    Saves: http://hof.civfanatics.net/game_info.php?entryID=676

    I've also done multiple peaceful 20k games on deity & demigod. Agree with Doc, you must get colossus, with limited cities the commerce bonus is huge. If I'm using a SCI civ on a high difficulty, I'll sometimes resort to colossus as my initial build, to make sure I get it. (not recommended if you don't have your own island.) I managed shakes + newtons in that sid game, but missed out on copes. The colossus bonus meant I still kept a big tech lead though. Preventing a launch or UN never arose, as nobody even reached the modern age.

    If you can get colossus, temple and one of Oracle/Mausoleum/Pyramids/Zeus reasonably early, you should be very well placed for 20k.

    If you were past 10k on monarch in the 1600s, and at about 75cpt, you'd still reach 20k in the 1900s. If you built the UN, nobody else will get a diplo win, you just have to worry about restricting spaceships. Resource denial is good, but you might find the biggest help comes from slowing the AI tech pace as much as possible. Less cascades to worry about that way, so you might get an extra wonder or 2, and much longer to SS too.
     
  18. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    I had the colossus, but it wasn't it my capital(My capital wasn't coastal). Do you think in monarch and Up Colossus in really more important than GL for victory?To me, GL is the most important for the win.

    Especially playing OCC or 5CC, GL is crucial to keep up in tech early.

    Re-iterating, here's my game setup:
    Monarch Difficulty
    Standard Map
    Playing as Babylonians
    Vanilla Civ 3
    Continents map
    standard size
    5CC game


    The main problem with cultral was the tech pace. I had the GL, Colosses, Newtons, and Cops and they still managed to keep pace with me somehow. I also asked for per turn gold to trade with some techs to slow tech down for them but somehow we still managed to get to space flight by around 1600.
     
  19. sanabas

    sanabas Psycho Bunny Hall of Fame Staff

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    Been a loong time since I played vanilla, so I might be slightly off. I would consider colossus & shakespeare's more important than GL, although I would be doing my best to get GL too. Colossus isn't as important if your 20k city is inland though, as its biggest benefit comes when all that extra commerce is paired up with the science boosting wonders. Also, your other 4 cities first priority should be improving your 20k city so it's using 12 fully improved tiles. Building other wonders in those cities guarantees you won't get them in your 20k city, and also means the AI will cascade and finish other wonders instead, denying your 20k city those ones too.

    I think that's your biggest mistake right there. There is almost no reason to be building wonders outside your 20k city, especially Shake's, as it will only hurt you. Those 2, along with GL, are 3 of the most important wonders. Shake's is 8cpt, and lets you work 21 tiles instead of 12, which is probably 50-100% more shields, resulting in other wonders building 25-50% quicker. Colossus is the only wonder I'd consider building outside my 20k city. And maybe Hoover Dam and the other coastal wonders, but only if there was zero risk of the AI cascading to something else. Much better with the others to aim for them with the 20k, and you're no worse off if you miss. One of cope's & newton's should have been shakespeare's, then go for cope's or newton's and cross your fingers. Building them in a different city can only hurt your 20k date.

    Did you have a tech lead through most of the game? Or where you behind the AI in techs?
    For the tech pace, try keeping civs isolated as much as possible (so don't trade them contacts), and if you can afford to hoard techs, do so. It will help lessen the cascades. If you've got the GL, you might want to consider not researching at all until you get education (apart from maybe Theology for Sistine's). You can only build 1 wonder at a time, so there's not too much point to having 3 or 4 good wonders available to you. Did you have a tech lead through most of the game? Or where you behind the AI in techs? If you had a lead, then just switch off your research when you can, and build up your cash reserves while the AI catches up. For instance, the entire bottom line of the MA tech tree has nothing that helps a peaceful 20k game, so you should be getting Cope's, Shakespeare's, + Smith's & Magellan's as fallbacks, while letting the AI do its own research. Once you're running out of wonders, then you can buy/research the now cheap bottom row, and go for Newton's.

    Once you get to T of E, Universal Suffrage & Hoover's, you should know roughly when you'll hit 20k, and the Modern wonders will only be for improving your finish, not ensuring victory. So again, switching off research if you're worried about the AI could be useful, to keep the AI's research as expensive as possible. You can still trail behind them getting the techs cheaply to still have a shot at the modern wonders.

    If you were behind in techs through the MA/early IA, then I'm amazed you reached space in the 1600s. a quick look at the hof for Standard monarch SS wins shows 50% of the games finishing later than 1800, and they were trying to research ASAP.
     
  20. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    With only 5 cities on a standard size map, its hard to keep the AI isolated as the AI expands really fast. As I said, I played the game without ever declaring war once so crushing all opposition wasn't an option here. Without you ever declaring war, its near impossible to keep the AI isolated.

    Without war, you don't have Great Leaders to rush production which means culture-whoring in 1 city is much more difficult.

    It came down to either having Newton's in my capital city or Shakespeare's and I chose Newton's because my capital had much more science than my other cities(that and the cops was already there).

    So actually by the end of the middle ages in the capital I had:
    GL
    Oracle
    Hanging Gardens
    Cops
    Newtons
    Sistine chapel


    I failed to get Bach before someone else did but with those 5 stacked in one city and all the culture improvements, I still hit 10k only around 1600.

    I basically mined everything to produce maximum amount of shields.

    Iin other cities I had:

    Colossus
    Shakespears
    Great Wall(hey there's nothing else to build)

    And like 1 other one(forgot which one)

    The only real one I missed out on throughout the late middle ages for culture was Bach's. I didn't get Smith's or the war academy either but those aren't important if your staying at peace the entire game and you only have 5 cities.

    Your were right about the Colossus though, I built my capital 1 square away from the ocean(I thought it was ocean until I found out it wasn't later).

    Maybe I should have built shakes in my capital and newton's and cops in the city with Colossus?

    But then newtons and cops combined produce more culture than shakes.
     

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