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5th City Number 5!!!

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sommerswerd, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

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    I Quote myself in support of the Queen's position on the fifth city location.

    I correct myself for the last sentence. I meant We cannot wait AND LET Sancta rush us.
     
  2. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    "Queen?", that's a new one, reminds me of the Australian flick "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" :)
     
  3. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

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    I don't know for you, but Sommersweed is already my Queen. I don't care if she/he winds up actually being a balding middle-aged overweight man. In my heart and soul she is a well curved dark skinned mysterious Queen!

    :worship:
     
  4. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

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    The missionary is available to be send with the next settler for a quick access to Iron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  5. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Herviov is right. Now that we know that all the cool kids in Kazakhstan want to join Confu :cool: (Hazrate AND Aktau, WOW:eek:) we should definitely send the missionary to the new Iron city.:goodjob:
     
  6. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Well I vote that any suggestions must be backed up with test versions!! It's all very well saying 'we should build a city there' but how are we going to get there and improve the city? Things can sound fine in theory but fail in practice. Hence why we test things first... it's what the sim game is for.
     
  7. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    :eek: I disagree. I think anyone should be able to make any suggestion they want. Test versions are highly subjective and thus are OK for information purposes but should not be a requirement to make a suggestion.

    Everyone on the team does not have time to conduct extensive testing. Everyone on the team does not have the knowledge to post test results and screenshots. Think about what you are saying :king:. Effectively a rule like that would mean that ONLY people who can conduct tests and post the results would be allowed to make suggestions on the fourum. I can conduct tests and post screenshots but I still think it would be an unfair rule.

    If the majority team supports the idea that ONLY people who conduct tests and post screenshots are allowed to give suggestions... I will respect that. However, I suggest that rule should DEFINITELY be polled before we adopt it. I will post suggested language in the poll thread.
     
  8. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I agree with Sommers here! We need a fair accessible system people can confide in.
     
  9. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    :lol: LMFAO now it is all soooo clear to me... I had never heard of this film... I was starting to wonder BTW... because of the obsession... but if this is the regular brand of entertainment ... that explains the obsession very neatly, no?:lol: LOL

    A joke... obviously, but still... I am glad we have some support for the idea of attracting more input through regular/more frequent polls.

    @ :king: Remember all the "testing" that was conducted that "proved" Confu would found in Oskemen? ALL that testing proved to be false...b/c Confu founded in Pavlodar. That is why I say that testing is OK, but should be treated as 'for infomation purposes only'. "Tests" are not always correct.;) Don't you agree?
     
  10. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Sommersweed eh? What have you been smoking herviov? :smoke: :lol:
     
  11. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    I couldn't agree more with this statement.

    I am not saying that to suggest something you need to post extensive analysis of tests, but at least you have to spend 10 minutes with the test file and play 15-20 turns, from current save to get the feeling of things...otherwise suggestions will be completely in the air and this game will deteriorate very fast.

    Kaleb is making an effort here and spending time to update that test file..use it...at least for 10-15 minutes to have a minimum grasp of the situation.
     
  12. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Test versions not subjective! They are a good way of actually showing a vision for the future.

    Let me be clear: I am not saying that any time someone makes a suggestion they have to back it up with a test sim. But every key proposal should be tested. Building city 5 on the iron spot is 'a suggestion' but I am against just going ahead and building there without detailed planning of how it will be improved.

    It's not a rule that each individual has to do the test, but if we are looking at an important decision, like where to found a city, then that is the sort of thing that must be tested before a decision is made.

    It was never suggested that this proved Confu would found in Oskemen. I raised it as a concern when it happened repeatedly in my tests but wee realised as a result that this was simply a case of the RNG not 'refreshing' from reloading the game. If you shut down Civ completely and restarted you got a different result. In many of my test version Confu did found in Pavlodar and in Aktau as well.
     
  13. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Warning!!! Looong Post Follows... There is a lot to address. To stay on topic I moved some of this from tactics thread.

    First off... Smoke maybe YOU are not "in any urgency" to get metal but several of us on the team are. I for one want metal right away. What, in your opinion, is a situation that would make us "in urgency" to get metal? A stack of barbarian Spearmen at our Border? Its too late then.

    And you think that we have enough military to defeat 4 Spears?:confused: I ran a few tests where I stacked 3 Warriors and 3 Chariots and attacked 4 Spears. Guess what happened... If we get attacked by 4 Spears with no metal it's GG.

    I have also run some limited tests (See Attached Screenshots)...I however, will NOT have more time today, testing is very time consuming, which is why I am against making it a prerequisite for posting suggestions. Some key points...

    Going for iron city first, does not hamper our workers and our defences. The reason to get Iron City first is because we need to pop the borders to get the Iron, but we do not need to pop the Gold city border to get the Gold or the Corn. Building the Iron City First and using the missionary with it will mean that we get those borders popped faster. We can work the forest for hammers and then slave a workboat to get the fish faster.

    Also since Gold city has the corn near water, there is even less of a rush/strain on workers, because the corn does not need a road.

    Since we are capable of producing 4-5 chariots very fast and should not be too afraid of enemy invasion for a little while, we don't need to be worried at all about building a city that is not connected to the border yet. Also, once we build the Gold city a few turns later, the "border popped" Iron city will be connected to our borders.

    6th (Gold) city will be be made straight after. In my tests we got Iron city on turn 82(825BC) and Gold City 5 turns later (700BC), so we can live without Gold for a few turns IMO. See Attached Screenshots.

    Some other points...

    Pavlodar should not be slaved.

    Capital should produce a settler once it gets to size 7 produce granary until then. When the first settler is done there should only be 1 turn left on Granary (as long as running a scientist does not take away a production square.) After the Granary make/slave workers

    Ok fair enough :king:... Tests are objective, in the sense that the game will generally react the same way if different players take the same actions. When I say tests are "subjective," what I mean, is that the results of the testing can be skewed and presented to fit the impression that the particular player wants. For an example of this read the second Smokey quote, then read my response... very similar, in fact I am sure we took alot of the same actions in the Sim. But my analysis is worded to suit what I want (Iron) and Smoke's analysis is tailored to get Gold.

    Also, tests are subjective because there are a million different variables and actions that anyone can take that will influence test results (as I am sure you and Smoke will point out in response to this post) and there is no way to be sure that everyone takes exactly the same actions.

    What do you define as "key" proposals? It seems to me that "key" proposals means anytime there are a bunch of team members who disagree with what :king: wants to do it becomes a "key" proposal and requires "testing." And if you dont have time or knowledge to "test," then you can't offer an opinion. Is that what you mean?

    To quote Willy Wonka "WRONG!!! sir, WRONG!!!" We build cities, fight wars, sign treaties, move scouts, and work tiles, based on WHAT THE TEAM WANTS, Not based on what "test" results show. If the team voted for example to build the horrible NE fish city (good heavens, please no) we would build it, because this is a Democracy Game.

    We do what the majority of the team wants, not what :king: thinks is best. Test results are not required to take action, all that is required is a majority... period. The ONLY time :king: gets to decide what is best is when there is silence on the issue... because as we ALL know. Silence Means Consent. There is not silence on this issue so :king: does not get to decide what is best. :king: has to do what majority wants.

    What you seem to be suggesting is that :king: decides what is best, and if you want to do something different you have to convince :king: that your way is better through "testing." That is exactly wrong. If majority is leaning towards a particular action and :king: disagrees, then :king: must convince the majority... either through "testing" or through flowery prose to change their mind. If :king: cant get the majority to change their mind by the time we vote/take action, then we do what :king: did not want.:( So sad for :king:, but that is how Democracy works.

    So you admit that your "testing" was faulty... Hmmm. Exactly my point. You were convincing the team that we should wait to build Oskemen based on faulty tests... That is why testing is for information purposes ONLY and not a requirement.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Whoah hold on a sec. First of all, thanks for the tests - I'll post comments on that here in a mo, I'm also trying to run some of my own tests. I'll reply to your other comments in the 'polls' thread, I think its more relevant to that thread.

    You know, one thing we could try is to found Judaism just after we've built city 5. Quite often in the test game Confu spreads to Oskemen quickly, meaning that founding Juduaism would make the holy city go to City 5 as it will be the only city without Confucianism...
     
  15. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I say we go for Judaism, Baron Cohen is a jew, so fits well the theme.
     
  16. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    No Way!!! Iron is more adventurous... Folks who want Iron want military... And as the old military slogan goes... "It's not just a job it's an adventure!":D

    1. Iron is Optimal for :hammers: production, military, offense, defense.
    2. Iron is also a Brand New Resource. We already have Gold.
    3. Also, Iron City will give us Fish, another brand new resource.
    4. Settling Iron first means we can use the Missionary to pop the Borders faster, giving access to Iron Earlier.
    5. Since we need to pop border for Iron, it makes sense to get Iron city sooner so that border can pop sooner, and we can get Swords, Spears, Axes sooner (even slave one if there is a surprise barb attack).
    6. If we use the missionary for Gold, we will not get Iron 5 turns later, because we will have to build a monument in Iron city before we can pop border.
    7. If we have to build monument in Iron city, we will not be building the workboat, so that means fish will be delayed as well.
    8. As many have already pointed out, we are way ahead in tech. Plus we have two allies giving us tech. We are behind in military. SANCTA already has Axes at least.

    Gold is optimal for... well... Gold. We also have Corn already.

    So the choice is really between:
    getting 2 NEW resources and NEW units First and two resources we already have 5 turns later,:D
    or;
    getting 2 resources we already have first, and waiting 10-12 turns to get 2 NEW resources (and then waiting another 5-10 turns to actually hook those resources up then more turns to get the NEW units.) :(
     
  17. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Why use missionary for gold city?...we can keep it for iron so no monument needed..

    There are other issues as well.

    1. worker timings with roading to iron city and improving other things like the cow in horse city at the same time. It is not straight forward...iron first would mean delaying cow...and needding extra roads that gold city would otherwise provide

    2. defences for iron city..soon we will get barb archers comming. In tests i did sometimes chariots lost to archers, so we need at least 2 chariots in iron city...since it will be far from other cities..that is what I mean by stretching defences...while in corn city they can move from 1 city to other in 1 turn.
    If we do iron city 5 turns later, that gives us time to have 2 more chariots.... Plus and extra slavable city...and we can be more relaxed on defence.

    Also we will get archery soon in trade won't we? so we could have archers as well if things go tottaly wrong..

    BTW....look at tech rate in your test..it is at 30% and we have no extra cottages than the original 3 in capital...not exactly what we want to be doing IMO...another reason why corn/gold first works much better.
     
  18. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I agree on the gold city for now, due to logistics, unit coverage and economies of scale. Making Pavlodar a growing fully fledged industrial city, and our capital a settler producer, we may need a commercial city en route to copper and iron.
     
  19. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    City 5 next to the gold, City 6 next to the iron. Missionary should go to the iron city. We have the breathing room from other civs to wait just a bit on the iron. This allows us to get our commerce up and running faster which is essential to be able to continue to REX. We also have time before barbs upgrade to the point where we need axes as a counter.
     
  20. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Sommers, what happens if your stack is attacked by the four spears?
     

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