5th City Number 5!!!

[Sommerswerd]

Sommers, what happens if your stack is attacked by the four spears?

Since I generally assume a question from the Don is a genuine one, I have tested your question and post the results for your review. If you were hoping that the 6 Kazakhs on Defense against would fare better against 4 Spears than they did on Offense... Well, you be the judge... Looks like Barbs 4, Kazakhs 0 to me

First Screenshot - 4 Barbarian Spears v. 3 Kazakh Chariots and 3 Kazakh Warriors... All lined up for battle... The overconfident chariots seem to have their backs turned...

Spoiler :

Second Screenshot - Barbs attack!!! Its a rout! All chariots slaughtered in a matter of seconds... May Hera and Zeus have mercy on their families...

Spoiler :

Third Screenshot - The poor Warriors... All they wanted was to bury the dismembered entrails of their fallen brethren... The Barbs show no mercy, and kill the defenseless warriors.

Spoiler :

The Kazakh Army is in ruins!!! In 2 SHORT TURNS!!!
(exclamation points added for dramatic effect)

 

[Kaleb]

I can's see anything in the spoilers :´(

 

[Sommerswerd]

I can's see anything in the spoilers :´(

Should be fixed now...

 

[cav scout]

Sommers- how does commerce city on turn 79 and iron city on turn 82 sound?

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sommers- how does commerce city on turn 79 and iron city on turn 82 sound?

Not so good. If I remember your proposal correctly, it involved slaving a settler from Pavlodar correct? I am not for slaving Pavlodar at all. Plus the key problem with your proposal is it delays getting the iron, which I am also against. My main focus is getting Axemen as soon as possible.

 

[cav scout]

My plan hooks up iron at exactly the same time yours does.

Your plan is to found the iron city on turn 82 and commerce city on turn 87. Turn 82 for the iron city is the same for both our plans so I don't see how you can say my plan hooks the iron up later. What am I missing?

And I think you should reconsider your resistance to whipping Pav for a settler. Sacrificing 2 pop in Pav gets us the commerce city 8 turns sooner than your plan.

 

[Sommerswerd]

@Everyone:

1. Can we get consensus on founding Judaism in the commerce city?

I don't think so... because this is not a high pressure issue for me. What I mean is, that you seem to be leveraging the high pressure Monotheism situation by tying "commerce city first", to making the Commerce city a holy city...

I just don't see it that way. We are going to bulb Philosophy later and the Commerce city will EASILY be the largest non-capital city by then, so we will almost certainly get Philosophy in the Commerce city later... In fact, since the Commerce city has so many floodplains, waiting and letting the commerce city grow larger, INCREASES the probability that Philosophy founds in the commerce city.

Also, we need a Great Prophet to make a holy city produce right? Our first Great Prophet is going to go to Pavlodar because Confucianism has spread to more cities (so we make more ). So that means we wont make from a second holy city until AFTER we get our SECOND Great Prophet. We havent got a single GP point towards a Prophet yet. We don't even have a temple yet and we have no religious wonders (or plans to build them).

It is going to be a long, long, time before a second holy city would be making . So there is NO resaon whatsoever to rush getting it.

So in conclusion, we don't need Monotheism in Commerce city, we should get Iron city first.

My plan hooks up iron at exactly the same time yours does.

Your plan is to found the iron city on turn 82 and commerce city on turn 87. Turn 82 for the iron city is the same for both our plans so I don't see how you can say my plan hooks the iron up later. What am I missing?

What you are missing is that no matter how we get our next settler, building / slaving etc., I want that settler to build the Iron city. All your plan does is get a settler faster. We can just use that faster settler to found the Iron city faster... What's wrong with that?

 

[cav scout]

Well I'm glad you acknowledge my plan gets settlers faster.

If my first settler goes to found the Iron city instead of commerce it founds on turn 81 (one turn faster). But then Judaism is founded there...you don't want that do you? This is why I want to found the commerce city on turn 79 (getting Judaism there) and then Iron on turn 82.

I think my test results indicate the best course of action but if the facts aren't compelling I give up- Lets have a poll... I can already hear the masses chanting "Iron first, down with Cav!"

Regarding bulbing Philosophy- confucianism will have already spread to the commerce city by then no doubt. Plus as the GP farm Aktau will rival it in size. Taosim is going to found in an unpredicable location (city 7 or 8 or who knows).

 

[Sommerswerd]

Well I'm glad you acknowledge my plan gets settlers faster.

I do, but your plan slaves Pavlodar, and even some who support Gold first, do not support slaving Pavlodar to get it.

If my first settler goes to found the Iron city instead of commerce it founds on turn 81 (one turn faster). But then Judaism is founded there...you don't want that do you?

1. Judaism will probably found in the largest non-capital city without a religion (as per the formula) not the last city founded as you suggest. Nice try though

2. I actually like the idea of Judaism founding in Iron city since it will be the Moai Statue City working all the water tiles in the radius. Iron city will actually be a powerhouse with Moais. Judaism in Iron City? No prob IMO. I hope it does found there.

3. We can't spread three religions efficiently anyway, so where Judaism founds is irrelevant. We will engineer Philosophy to found in a center. I certainly will not let my decision on where to found the next city be influenced by where Judaism founds! ... Especially since we are nowhere near our FIRST Prophet, let alone second.

I think my test results indicate the best course of action but if the facts aren't compelling I give up- Lets have a poll... I can already hear the masses chanting "Iron first, down with Cav!"

It depends on how you define "best." I have seen nothing to suggest that getting Gold first will cause us to get an Axeman faster than getting Iron first. That is how I define "best."

That is why your facts are not compelling. Your argument is based on the assumption that "best" means most . To me, it does not, in this particular case. And yes we will be having a poll. I will accept the result, whatever it is, with no complaints.

Regarding bulbing Philosophy- confucianism will have already spread to the commerce city by then no doubt. Plus as the GP farm Aktau will rival it in size. Taosim is going to found in an unpredicable location (city 7 or 8 or who knows).

We don't know where religion will spread... it may not go to commerce city. Even if it does, we can use farm and Hereditary rule to mushroom the size of the commerce city to a size where it founds philosophy even with religion there.

No city will rival the size of the only floodplain city in the country (with corn to boot) especially if we use farms instead of cottages (just until Philosophy founds) and keep slaving aktau until we bulb Philosophy.

An easier approach, would be to simply spread Confu to ALL our cities so that the +1 modifier is canceled out. That way the huge commerce city is a shoe in for Philosophy, no matter how many cities we have. Problem solved

 

[cav scout]

1. I'm not suggesting religion spreads to the last city. I'm suggesting that confucianism will spread to Oskemen before we found the next city, which will exclude Judaism from our 4 current cities if a 5th city without religion is in place when we tech Monotheism. Nice try putting words into my mouth though

2. Thank you for admitting what you really wanted all along. You should have just said you wanted Judaism in the iron city from the beginning so everyone could evaluate your proposal at face value. Judaism in the iron city is certainly an option but I doubt the Majority would be for it.

3. How do you plan to "engineer Philosophy to found in a center?" Seems like this statement is just an empty promise/smoke screen the win the current argument. Your belief in the predictability of the "religion founding formula" is misplaced because random number generation is the key part of the formula. Certain cities can be comfortably excluded based on the formula (like Haz) but city pop itself isnt a reliable predictor. Confu could have founded in Aktau, Oskemen or Pav. We lucked out that the RNG that Kaleb had loaded went for Pav, thats all.

 

[Sommerswerd]

If you are skeptical that we can predict where the religion will found, dosen't that undermine your argument that we can get Judaism to found in the Gold city? I thought that was one of your primary claims, that Judaism would found in the Gold city if we built it first.

It does not make sense to me that we should believe you when you say we can trust that Judaism will found in Gold City, but we cant trust me when I say Philosophy will found in Gold city. Especially since you seem to distrust the founding formula.

If you are not basing your expectation of where the religion will found on the formula, then what are you basing your expectations on? "Testing?!?" Forgive me for nit-picking, but I have not seen any "congrats, Judaism has founded in Gold City" screenshots (like the ones and I posted when we were discussing the founding of Confu.)

I have done some more testing BTW and I can found Iron city on turn 80, and Gold city on 82 (slaved settlers from Aktau and Hazrate). Workboat from Aktau gets Fish. Iron is hooked up on turn 90. Barb really start ramping up in the Sim in the upcoming turns.

 

[Kaleb]

In most of my test Confucianism spreads to Oskemen before Judaism is founded. So as long as we run tech at 0% for 2 turns we'll found Judaism the same turna as we found corn-gold city, meaning it will definitely be Holy City.

Alternatively, if we want Pavlodar to be Holy City, then it's best to only run tech at 0% for 1 and not whip worker, but whip settler. That way Pav will be pop 4 and both Osk and Aktau can be pop 1, so it will still have the best chance of being Holy City.

We can even use the missionary to spread Confu to Oskemen in case it doesn't spread by itself.

If you are not basing your expectation of where the religion will found on the formula, then what are you basing your expectations on? "Testing?!?" Forgive me for nit-picking, but I have not seen any "congrats, Judaism has founded in Gold City" screenshots (like the ones and I posted when we were discussing the founding of Confu.)

That's because in the sim Judaism has already been founded. I'm not sure how to unfound it but I can make it that Monotheism gets you a religion. I'll adjust the save game now.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

Dobri Den, fellas.

I am trying to get up to speed with things, so bare with me. I was wondering about build N of the beaver for a city with beaver, iron, gold and corn. If we are planning on popping the border with a missionary anyway, does this work? It would save room for another city to be built near the proposed gold and corn site, but perhaps on the PH tile instead (although, maybe with less water tiles for the Moai). Just a thought, but I do agree with securing iron ASAP.

 

[cav scout]

That's because in the sim Judaism has already been founded. I'm not sure how to unfound it but I can make it that Monotheism gets you a religion. I'll adjust the save game now.

The way to "unfound" Judaism in the sim is to go into world builder and remove Monotheism from the Mayan civ and remove Judaism and the holy city from the Mayan capital.

 

[cav scout]

If you are skeptical that we can predict where the religion will found, dosen't that undermine your argument that we can get Judaism to found in the Gold city? I thought that was one of your primary claims, that Judaism would found in the Gold city if we built it first.

It does not make sense to me that we should believe you when you say we can trust that Judaism will found in Gold City, but we cant trust me when I say Philosophy will found in Gold city. Especially since you seem to distrust the founding formula.

Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. Certain aspects of the religion founding formula serve as good predictors-> religion is very very unlikely to found in cities that are capitals or already have religions if there is at least one city that doesn't have a religion at all.

So religiously "vacant" cities are by far the most likely locations for new religions to found. What doesn't work as a predictor in the formula is city pop size. If you have three cities without any religion then random number generation seems to be much more important than pop size in determining which city gets the religion.

Even if you have one city size 6, another size 3 and brand new one size 1 it is still effectively a toss-up. It doesn't automatically found in the size 6 city like you claim Sommers, RNG has much more weight between cities that are religiously "vacant".

If you are not basing your expectation of where the religion will found on the formula, then what are you basing your expectations on? "Testing?!?" Forgive me for nit-picking, but I have not seen any "congrats, Judaism has founded in Gold City" screenshots (like the ones and I posted when we were discussing the founding of Confu.)

Screen shots attached. Note then since Judaism had already founded in the test game I had to remove all traces of it from the Mayan civ via worldbuilder. When I teched Monotheism it let me choose a religion since Judaism had already been founded.

Also note the settler and missionary on their way to the iron city site

I have done some more testing BTW and I can found Iron city on turn 80, and Gold city on 82 (slaved settlers from Aktau and Hazrate). Workboat from Aktau gets Fish. Iron is hooked up on turn 90. Barb really start ramping up in the Sim in the upcoming turns.

I know your trying to prove a point but Whipping in the capital seems a little too much to me.

Pav yes, its still a low pop and will regenerate fast. Haz no- we need that pop for the GL and so much more.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Hmm, I think it's just a little early for this. We don't have to decide for another 4 turns at least...

Sommers, when did you get iron hooked up in your tests? I got iron hooked up on turn 88 with building corn-gold city first. I also can make it probable that Judaism will found in Pavlodar.

If we are going for iron city first, it should be on the hill next to the iron, as that gets the iron fastest, which is after the whole point of building that city first...

I thought you wanted Gold first Yes the poll is a day or two earlier than I prefered, but my sense was that the discussion had reached an impasse, further discussion/testing was just a drain on team time and resources. We needed to settle the issue and move on, don't you agree?

In my most recent tests, I got Iron hooked up on turn 90 but of course that was with the Iron city on the tundra square (requiring a border pop). I agree that the hill next to the Iron is a much better location, with Fur and Fish, but that location did not seem to have much support. I think once city 5 is built there will be more support for the tundra hill location.

It looks like that we will have to save that discussion for City 6...

 

[Kaleb]

I'm still testing and haven't 100% made up my mind yet. I need to have another look at demographics to work out how big an army SANCTA might have.

But I am still leaning towards Gold city first. I managed to get two axemen by turn 90 even with the Gold city first. I also got a missionary on the iron city the turn after it was built and Judaism founded in Pavlodar.

(p.s. the test sim now will found a religion once Monotheism is discovered. It seems to be impossible to unfound Judaism but I can still make Monotheism found another religion)

 

[Kaleb]

Btw, all the testing now is good as it's giving us a broad plan of action for the next 15 turns!!

 

[Sommerswerd]

Poll is closed on city 5. It will be founded on the Grassland square NW of the Gold in Syr Darya River Valley. Now we need a name for the city. So far folks have suggested:

1. Shymkent
2. Almaty
3. Sexitime (maybe this was only a suggestion for city 6)
4. Atyrau (city 6 name suggestion)
5. Karagandy (city 6 name suggestion)
6. Chimkent (city 6 name suggestion / variation on Shymkent)
7. Kyzylorda

I added Kyzylorda because I really like that name for a city. I will include all these options in the poll. Names that are not chosen will carry over to the poll on the city 6 name.

 

[Provolution]

Please omit Sexitime here, its for number six.