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6.2 Rule violation by The Brotherhood?

Discussion in 'Eagles' started by Cyc, Apr 22, 2011.

  1. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    6.2. If the other team has not explicitly granted Right of Passage, you must declare war in game, before moving any units into their territory.

    This rule mainly applies to units left within another nations borders. The only real time a team can call another team in violation of the rule is at first contact. If you have first contact with a team, but your communication wasn't traded by a third party and you do not see this other "first contact" team within your borders, you can assume correctly that they entered your territory and left on the same turn. This is in violation of the rule. But to prove it, and make the violating team declare war for their transgression, a referee needs to stop the game and review the save.

    We have already seen evidence of this in the game, and the Eagle team could be within their rights making the offending team declare war. They offending team was not protected in any way by the rules. So it is our option to proceed with this, if we so choose.

    *posted in civforum.
    _________________________________
     
  2. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    So now that we have their contact, should we have the referee examine the save and make The Brotherhood declare war on us? This would definitely put them in a bind if they are going for a Republic government. We could wind up getting a good deal out of this by making them trade there way out of war.

    What do you think?
     
  3. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    You can't assume that correctly. They could have come within a tile of our border, and gone the other way, and that would have been good enough to make contact.

    So if you can post a screenshot that clearly shows that they have been in our territory, then you have a point. Otherwise, don't bother.
     
  4. Sparthage

    Sparthage Fighting Tyranny

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    But only if they had visual contact with one of our units, the ref should still check if it's possible to make contact without entering our territory. If it's not, then they will be forced to declare war.
     
  5. EvilConqueror

    EvilConqueror Warlord

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    They may have made contact through our exploring warrior or curragh.
     
  6. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    As far as I know, in order for one nation to make first contact with the other, one of two situations must occur.

    1. Finding a unit and clicking on it, or
    2. Finding a unit plus seeing the unit's cultural borders.

    After reading Bowsling's post I went back to the save to check. First of all, the Eagles don't build culture, except for the capital, so this game is a lot different than mine. My cultural borders move quickly. Second, we only have 3 Warriors and 2 of them are in the capital. Our one wandering Sweet Feather was on a hill and moved to a Mountain, so he probably would have seen the vessel. We do have a Curragh on the hunt, but if another Curragh had passed it or made contact, I probably would have seen it, if not immediately, then when I moved it. There were forest and hills on the shore.

    But there is a Worker out in the field up by Tuscan Talon that would have afforded an opportunity for a Curragh to see our border and the Worker at the same time, and then slip back into the shadows. That may be where the sighting took place. So I stand corrected. I have to remember that this is not a normal game.
     
  7. CharlemagneXLII

    CharlemagneXLII Prince

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    I looked at the save and have concluded that a seafaring country could not have gone in and out of our borders without our being able to see their boat either this turn or last. The orange routes are what a boat could do in three moves coming out of the fog- and the boat would be visible if it had taken such a route. The red routes are possible contact routes, I'm not exactly sure which ones are viable. They could also have seen our borders in the east, but again, I'm not sure if it would be possible to make contact that way.

    EDIT: Image taken down. I'll try to look into where they could have come from by figuring out more behind the mechanics. They may also have sunk in the nearby sea.
     
  8. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    You might want to take that picture down, CharlemagneXLII. Some people may know where to find posted pics on this site. If you are going to leave it up, at least edit out the mini-map (the whole bottom portion). Thanks.
     
  9. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Thanks again.

    Heh, I hadn't thought about that...
     
  10. EvilConqueror

    EvilConqueror Warlord

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    Could the other team's curragh have come from behind ours and then slipped back out of view? You wouldn't have spotted it if it was behind us.
     
  11. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I stand corrected again. :blush:

    I had been looking through the rules discussion at CiFo for this conversation, but it was actually posted over here in CivFanatics. This post in our rules discussion claims that by presseing Shift-D at a cultural border will give you first contact with the nation. I had forgotten about this (never tried it). So my theory is whack. The Brotherhood could have very easily gotten within range of one of our borders and pressed Shift-D.

    Never mind...
     
  12. Eclipse4449

    Eclipse4449 Deity

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    I have received an email pointing me to the Referee Q&A thread concerning a Rule.

    Please do not make jugement early in this statement, please understand the whole of it first :)

    This rule or rather the subject of the rule is entering someone Else's land without a Right of Passage or a Declaration of War.

    Built into Civ3 is gage that tells you to some degree your strength compared to whom ever you have selected.

    Any commander worth a Grain of salt would not enter in War if this messaged displayed "compared to these guys we are weak", but on the other hand it might show you are stronger.
    But many times It shows both are equal, here is where I want to volley my thoughts.

    As you grow nearer to this Civ there are only a few things you can see because of the Fog of War so everyone is equal. You might see the layout of the cities and you might see approximately the sizes of them, and maybe some improvements but that depends on the age of the map. But know one sees the units, their placement, and composition.

    If you are above the strength of this civ, this subject means little to you! But if you are average or better much weaker, I can not allow or better said, I want to be able to have options. The example I want to use is you are "weaker"

    I hope you will agree that if you find yourself to be weaker than another civ you want to do something about it, to give you a better chance of surviving later in the game.

    In this example you want to attack them for the purpose of slowing their progress.

    But how can you do this if you are weaker? You must develop a strategy but how do you do this without further gathering information. If you can figure out what he has built as a core unit you could possibly build up a few units to counter them, but without physically entering his land this information is not obtainable beyond getting it from someone else which in most cases is a bad idea.

    entering this land with a fast unit can give you this, in addition to a few other things associated with this subject.
    1) you can see, until you are spotted and ordered out or the player simply kills it
    2) it draws support units to a particular area
    3) could change the players strategy, (building to a unit)

    Not one of those 3 items had anything to do with "War Happiness" but now entering ones land without a RoP or a Declaration of War, this term is now directly associated with this. Now this alarms me because this game any many others like it have been reduced to "If you are a master at developing your economy and maximizing your research to gain a stronger army than everyone else". But this game is so much more, a weaker Army can enter a stronger civ area and do critical damage thus allowing a lesser a chance. But to do this efficiently he would need to manipulate his future Foe.

    This example would be to appear gathering in the West but attack with main in the South with a certain objective like to remove like "saltpeter and Iron". To find this area I must see it first, now I'm not allowed to! If I destroy this mine I declared war if not it is between these players what is to be done.

    So I ask you, if you have no detailed information of this civ why are you limited to only attacking and Declaring War based on the displayed "Your Army is Stronger"?

    I just might want to enter your land to sell someone else your map, if you do not like it you have every right to order me out or Declare war! Why is now the term "War Happiness" creating rules that limit strategic imagination. As I said this game IS NOT JUST AN EMPIRE BUILDER, if it was just that, it would not have fighting units attached.

    Happy Easter :)
     

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