(6-42) Recon Unit Line: Trailblazer Now Affects Base Terrain

[DoveCDog]

Problem: Currently upgraded scouts move faster through forest than through plains. This is frustrating and immersion breaking.

Current:
Trailblazer 1
+10% CS
Double movement through forest and jungle tiles

Trailblazer 2
+10% CS
Double movement through desert and snow tiles

Proposal:
Trailblazer 1
+10% CS
Double movement through plains, grassland, and hill tiles

Trailblazer 2
+10% CS
Double movement through desert, tundra, and snow tiles

Rationale: The scout units have 2 sets of overlapping promotions - a) ignore movement cost and b) double movement through X tile. Because plain/grassland tiles are left out of the double movement promotions, the result is that scouts can move through 4 forest tiles vs 2 grassland tiles in 1 turn. With Scouting 3 this goes up to 6 forest vs 3 grassland tiles. By giving the same promotion to grassland tiles, the discrepancy will be gone.

An alternative would be to get rid of the double movement completely and have trailblazer give +1 MP. However, this would pose problems with crossing mountains and pillaging tiles costing less impact.

EDIT: As u/pineappledan pointed out, it is possible for a tile to be both plain and forest. Proposal has been edited to apply to only base tile types, not the features (ex forest, oasis, marsh) on top of them.

 

[rkkn]

current trailblazer 2 also gives double movement through snow

 

[DoveCDog]

current trailblazer 2 also gives double movement through snow

Updated, thanks!

 

[rkkn]

so only tundra doesn't grant double move under this

 

[DoveCDog]

so only tundra doesn't grant double move under this

oh man, my brain isn't working today. Will modify again. I propose only mountains not to grant double movement

 

[Rekk]

Tundra doesn't cost extra movement.

 

[pineappledan]

Your proposal gives double move to plains, but doesn’t say anything about grassland.

Double move in plains/grassland would apply to grassland tiles that have forest on them. So on TB I scouts would be able to move 4 times in all land tiles. I’m not sure what giving an additional double movement in forest/jungle would do. Maybe it would make each move in plains forest cost 0.25..

At any rate, I don’t think OP realized that jungle and forest are features while plains etc are terrains, and that they both exist at the same time on a single tile

 

[Tekamthi]

I’m not sure what giving an additional double movement in forest/jungle would do

doesn't stack... ie double moves is a boolean, once something turns it on for a tile, its on -- can't be turned on more. These doubled-up double-move situations occur often in a few of my recon modmod bandaids, so unless something's changed very recently, can confirm this 100%

On topic of broader OP proposal, I have some ideas of course about recon movement, but I feel some of us have collectively discussed this extensively rather recently and I don't really have anything to add on the topic at this time. For now I'll just link that discussion: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...n-units-to-give-them-unique-abilities.685203/

Overall I think recon need bigger changes than what's proposed, though it may fit well into a broader set of adjustments.

 

[DoveCDog]

Your proposal gives double move to plains, but doesn’t say anything about grassland.

Double move in plains/grassland would apply to grassland tiles that have forest on them. So on TB I scouts would be able to move 4 times in all land tiles. I’m not sure what giving an additional double movement in forest/jungle would do. Maybe it would make each move in plains forest cost 0.25..

At any rate, I don’t think OP realized that jungle and forest are features while plains etc are terrains, and that they both exist at the same time on a single tile

Thanks, edited again. Hopefully this is the final time

 

[DoveCDog]

Only thing I'm not happy with is that players who spawn in tundra or desert are penalized compared to players who spawn on plains and grassland. I still prefer it to the flat +1 MP, though.

 

[Tekamthi]

Proposal has been edited to apply to only base tile types, not the features (ex forest, oasis, marsh) on top of them.

This shouldn't be necessary, double move bonuses don't stack. If you want to double check my claim, load up my recon terrain specialization or recon pays terrain cost mods, there are overlapping doubles there to test out.

As proposal sits now recon will be as fast or faster than mounted in the same terrain where mounted is fast. I am not a fan of this dynamic.

 

[DoveCDog]

This shouldn't be necessary, double move bonuses don't stack. If you want to double check my claim, load up my recon terrain specialization or recon pays terrain cost mods, there are overlapping doubles there to test out.

As proposal sits now recon will be as fast or faster than mounted in the same terrain where mounted is fast. I am not a fan of this dynamic.

I believe you, but my concern is it would be counter-productive to give double movement to grassland and then again double movement to forest as it wouldn't give any benefit. The promotion wouldn't be very good. By applying only to the base tile type is the simplest I believe.

 

[Tekamthi]

thats fair. This topic needs community attention in some form, and your proposal is easily-digestable in its scope. This is good. I'm indifferent for now on the details, but glad to see the discussion alive.

 

[dostillevi]

About time this was addressed. Just a few thoughts.

This has some implications for the scout line in combat. I am not the person do to the analysis, but I think it should be considered.

Is 4 movement across all land too much? I'd perhaps consider something like:

Proposal:
Trailblazer 1
+5% CS
+1 movement through plains, grassland, desert, floodplains, and tundra without hills or features

Trailblazer 2
+5% CS
+1 movement through plains, grassland, desert, floodplains, and tundra without hills or features
+1 movement through plans, grassland, desert, tundra with hills or features, and through snow

The net being, with both promotions, the scout line moves 4 tiles on terrain without hills or features, and 3 on tiles with hills or features, or snow. This isn't a super thought out proposal, just another way of thinking of it that could be fleshed out. Rivers could matter too?

 

[azum4roll]

What does +1 movement through <terrain> even mean? Gain 1 move point every <terrain> the unit passes through? That'll make most tiles free movement.

With the OP giving double movement on basically every tile, it just transforms the unit into a 4-move one (and 6-move at Explorer) that can cross river for free. Nothing special like it's now.

 

[adan_eslavo]

About time this was addressed. Just a few thoughts.

This has some implications for the scout line in combat. I am not the person do to the analysis, but I think it should be considered.

Is 4 movement across all land too much? I'd perhaps consider something like:

Proposal:
Trailblazer 1
+5% CS
+1 movement through plains, grassland, desert, floodplains, and tundra without hills or features

Trailblazer 2
+5% CS
+1 movement through plains, grassland, desert, floodplains, and tundra without hills or features
+1 movement through plans, grassland, desert, tundra with hills or features, and through snow

The net being, with both promotions, the scout line moves 4 tiles on terrain without hills or features, and 3 on tiles with hills or features, or snow. This isn't a super thought out proposal, just another way of thinking of it that could be fleshed out. Rivers could matter too?

It's just too much. I liked first version filling the gaps. This is what we should try first.
I wonder if we need Hills on Trailblazer 1 though.

 

[azum4roll]

I liked first version filling the gaps.

It's not filling the gaps. It's filling the whole pool. Trailblazer 1 + 2 effectively doubles movement on everything (except mountains).

 

[adan_eslavo]

Then what about adding very late promotion like Trailblazer IV or something that would pick up Tundra and Grassland? If someone wants to make the unit move faster on all kind of tiles then feel free to do it?
This would allow leaving early one like thery are now.

 

[dostillevi]

What does +1 movement through <terrain> even mean? Gain 1 move point every <terrain> the unit passes through? That'll make most tiles free movement.

With the OP giving double movement on basically every tile, it just transforms the unit into a 4-move one (and 6-move at Explorer) that can cross river for free. Nothing special like it's now.

Yeah the mechanics behind how it works are a little greek to me. I just mean they would move 3 tiles instead of two, and then 4 tiles (as they do now) instead of 3 once they have the second promotion. Should that be written as 150% movement instead of +1?

 

[Tekamthi]

from another congress thread about unit movement:

movement cost is just a single value per terrain/feature. Then it can be modified via other tables and promotion attributes. For example, via tables/promos you can give a unit half-cost moves in a specific terrain or feature, or you can make a tile cost 1-extra move. I *think* you can also have the movement cost doubled, though last time I tried this it wasn't working consistently from what I can remember. Beyond these, there's a promo attribute to end all movement when the unit enters rough terrain. I think that's it for existing functionality for movement.

Thats not the complete blueprint of all existing movement-related mechanisms, but that's the gist of it. A 1-cost plot can be converted to cost either 0.5, 1.5, or 2 MP. Elsewhere there are some bonuses to movement if a unit starts turn in a particular plot.

Beyond these existing rules we'd need some kind .dll rework, but past feedback from our dev team suggests this is very onerous and complex