(6-NS) Recon Unit Line Rework

[Anarcomu]

Simply importing some idea I had from this thread :

Problem : the Scout line moves faster in special terrain (including desert), and are slower in "normal" terrain. Also, different scout units looks very samey (same promotions).

Current :

• Trailblazer 1
  • +10% outside friendly territory
  • Double through forest and jungle tiles
• Trailblazer 2
  • +10% outside friendly territory
  • Double through desert and snow tiles
• Trailblazer 3
  • Can embark
  • Can cross Mountain
• Scouting 1
  • +1 sight
• Scouting 2
  • +1 sight
• Scouting 3 :
  • +1

Proposal :

All Recon Units have base 3 moves and lose "Ignore Terrain Cost" (affects Pathfinder, Scout, Paratrooper, Special Forces, XCOM. Explorer and Commando are Unaffected).
Trailblazer and Scouting promotion lines are entirely reworked :

• Trailblazer
  • +1 Sight
  • Ignore ZOC

The "exploration promotions", each one require Trailblazer :

• Mountaineer
  • Double in Hills. Can cross Mountains.
  • +10% when attacking into or defending in Hills.
• Forester
  • Double in Forest and Jungle.
  • +20% when attacking into or defending in Forest or Jungle.
• Canoe
  • Double in Marshes, no penalty from Rivers, can embark.
  • +20% when attacking into or defending in Marshes, no penalty for attacking over rivers.
• Desert dweller
  • Double in Desert.
  • +20% when attacking into or defending in Desert.
• Snow men
  • Double in Snow, can cross Ice.
  • +20% when attacking into or defending in Snow.
  • Take 20 damages when ending turn on Ice. Cannot heal on Ice.

Scouting require either promotion from the "exploration promotions", or Survival II :

• Scouting :
  • +1.
  • +1 sight.

Frogman promotion have "Canoe" as prerequisite.

Names are subject to change.

EDIT : added damage on ice from Snow men.
EDIT2 : change Forester, Canoe, Desert dweller, Snow men to provide 20% instead of 10%. Change "fighting" to "defend in or attack into".

Complex Proposal: Database Changes and Changes in the DLL for the new Promotion abilities

 

[rkkn]

Frogman promotion have "River-man" as prerequisite.

canoe?

 

[Anarcomu]

Proposal updated, that was the old name, forgot to change

 

[rkkn]

can cross Ice.

note that this could result in effectively crossing the ocean before compass on some maps

 

[Anarcomu]

note that this could result in effectively crossing the ocean before compass on some maps

Indeed ; however that promotion have little for itself, event the desert one get to double movement on floodplains and oasis.
Might change that (if possible) so that you loose some life if ending turn on ice, what would you think ?

 

[rkkn]

Might change that (if possible) so that you loose some life if ending turn on ice, what would you think ?

I like it.
And similar existed in vanilla iirc, with losing life from ending on mountains, so it should definitely be possible

also it reminds me of ocean crossing in a different 4x (Humankind) where at early/mid tech levels you can cross ocean but take damage, so it's more of a soft limit instead of a hard limit. you can take a risk and continue forward and hope to find land before your health runs out. I really liked that

 

[usadefcon1]

Simply importing some idea I had from this thread :

Problem : the Scout line moves faster in special terrain (including desert), and are slower in "normal" terrain. Also, different scout units looks very samey (same promotions).

Current :

• Trailblazer 1
  • +10% outside friendly territory
  • Double through forest and jungle tiles
• Trailblazer 2
  • +10% outside friendly territory
  • Double through desert and snow tiles
• Trailblazer 3
  • Can embark
  • Can cross Mountain
• Scouting 1
  • +1 sight
• Scouting 2
  • +1 sight
• Scouting 3 :
  • +1

Proposal :

All Recon Units have base 3 moves and lose "Ignore Terrain Cost" (affects Pathfinder, Scout, Paratrooper, Special Forces, XCOM. Explorer and Commando are Unaffected).
Trailblazer and Scouting promotion lines are entirely reworked :

• Trailblazer
  • +1 Sight
  • Ignore ZOC

The "exploration promotions", each one require Trailblazer :

• Mountaineer
  • Double in Hills. Can cross Mountains.
  • +10% when fighting in those terrain.
• Forester
  • Double in Forest and Jungle.
  • +10% when fighting in those terrain.
• Canoe
  • Double in Marshes, no penalty from Rivers, can embark.
  • +10% when fighting in Marshes, no penalty for attacking over rivers.
• Desert dweller
  • Double in Desert.
  • +10% when fighting in Desert.
• Snow men
  • Double in Snow, can cross Ice.
  • +10% when fighting in Snow.

Scouting require either promotion from the "exploration promotions", or Survival II :

• Scouting :
  • +1.
  • +1 sight.

Frogman promotion have "Canoe" as prerequisite.

Names are subject to change.

Desert Dweller and Snow Men are so niche they will almost never be picked.

Double Movement on Hills is good enough without the Mountain Crossing.

I would combine Desert, Snow and Mountain Crossing into one and call it "Rangers". Then rename Mountaineer to "Lookout" since it would only affect hilly terrain.

 

[azum4roll]

It is really bad when civs starting in grassland/plains can have their pathfinder move 3 tiles per turn while civs starting in forest/jungle/desert can only move 2.

 

[ilteroi]

so that is six moves in forest plains after the second promotion? and three on plain plains? doesn't sound like it improves anything ... or do i read this wrong?

 

[Anarcomu]

so that is six moves in forest plains after the second promotion? and three on plain plains? doesn't sound like it improves anything ... or do i read this wrong?

and lose "Ignore Terrain Cost"

Indeed

 

[Anarcomu]

It is really bad when civs starting in grassland/plains can have their pathfinder move 3 tiles per turn while civs starting in forest/jungle/desert can only move 2.

It is actually really bad when after reaching 1st promotion (which come quickly, only 10xp), civs starting in grassland/plains have 2 moves, and those in forests have 4 moves.

 

[azum4roll]

It is actually really bad when after reaching 1st promotion (which come quickly, only 10xp), civs starting in grassland/plains have 2 moves, and those in forests have 4 moves.

By the time the pathfinder gets their 1st promotion, they're out of the starting region. It's only the very start that differs between civs.

 

[pineappledan]

I really can’t understand why so many people want scout units to move the same as every other land unit. If they don’t have the ignore terrain bonus they behave very similarly to all the other units at baseline, and you’re entirely dependent on promotions to make the unit feel like anything other than a knock-off infantry unit

No. No. And more no. We have… 5 different scout movement proposals this Congress ranging from “make scouts suck” to “I don’t even know how movement works in this game”. What we have now is better than all of these.

 

[Tekamthi]

I really can’t understand why so many people want scout units to move the same as every other land unit. If they don’t have the ignore terrain bonus they behave very similarly to all the other units at baseline, and you’re entirely dependent on promotions to make the unit feel like anything other than a knock-off infantry unit

No. No. And more no. We have… 5 different scout movement proposals this Congress ranging from “make scouts suck” to “I don’t even know how movement works in this game”. What we have now is better than all of these.

I was hesitant to get into this topic this round; its much trickier to come up with a good movement regime than it seems.

I really appreciate the discussion sparked by these proposals, but I am not sure any are all the way to where they need to be. We could try out one of them anyway, I don't agree that they're worse than status quo -- plus we can always change further next round or revert -- but I'd suggest the best avenue for experimentation at this stage is via modmod. The scouting line isn't THAT important on the one hand, but its highly visible to the player on the other, and any jankiness will be readily apparent to any users of the mod.

I've begun a modmod using the 'no ignore' paradigm, but it needs more refinement to become a viable proposal. We don't currently have any modmod that attempts a 'no doubles' movement regime, but this a probably worthwhile direction to explore. There's also room for a semi-status-quo, but reworked, blended ignore/doubles version. Because this is a tricky topic but very database-accesible, I'd like to see some working prototypes, and bring these forward on opening day of a future congress for community to try & test as they vote.

 

[DoveCDog]

What I like about this version is that scouts won't be faster than mounted units on plains. What I don't like is that you can get away with just taking 3 promotions to get the +2 sight +1 MP that you used to need to pay 6 promotions for. That is going to free you up to take all the other promotions without having to sacrifice the sight/MP as currently.

Also, Trailblazer 3 currently gives the ability to use enemy roads/railroads!!! Are you proposing to get rid of it?

 

[Anarcomu]

What I like about this version is that scouts won't be faster than mounted units on plains. What I don't like is that you can get away with just taking 3 promotions to get the +2 sight +1 MP that you used to need to pay 6 promotions for. That is going to free you up to take all the other promotions without having to sacrifice the sight/MP as currently.

Also, Trailblazer 3 currently gives the ability to use enemy roads/railroads!!! Are you proposing to get rid of it?

You only need 3 promotions to get bonus sight and moves, but you also don't get free movement everywhere as a compensation (without perk, you move 2 tiles in forest/jungle/hill/desert). So yes, you still kinda loose some MP.
Moving through roads have never been something I've noticed before, too small of a bonus. Might consider adding it somewhere if it is deemed that useful.

 

[Anarcomu]

Amended proposal to deal damages to scout when ending turn on ice

 

[azum4roll]

I'm not sure AI can handle taking damage when ending turn on ice. They may get stuck and watch their recon unit slowly freeze to death...

 

[Phosphoraptor]

I think recon line units should instead be specialised towards being in bad terrain like desert/jungle that normal units struggle in, they are even called “Commando”, “Special Forces” etc that are associated with fighting there.
This is useful since recon will inevitably be thrown into combat in the late game when paradrop becomes a thing and there are no more places to explore, and need some niche where they can shine in direct combat against all the tanks and planes zooming around. Maybe there could be more promotions for combat in such terrain for recon in the future.

 

[JackeaRocket]

So you are saying i cant have super fast medics anymore? That would be a bummer