Richard III
Duke of Gloucester
At all? In the slightest?
60% of europeans think Israel is most dangerous country in the world
- Thread starter Leha
- Start date
At all? In the slightest?
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Well, this thing is, as said by many, easily explained without starting an (anti-)anti-semitism rant.
You just have to think about the prerequisites.
First there is the question, according to the article worded:
Tell me if in your opinion it [the country in question] presents or not a threat to peace in the world.
Second, what is "peace in the world"? Though IceBlaZe may have a point when it comes to morals (his and also mine in this case), "peace in the world" does basically mean "absence of war in the world". In other words, if you ask people if they see a country as a threat to peace in the world most will say if they think the country is likely to start a war (or if they think it is already engaging in it).
Now with these prerequisites it becomes obvious that the result is not dictated by anti-semitism.
Though I for example would by no means prefer for example living in Iran or North Korea to living Israel or having one of those two countries as a neighbour to Israel I do think that Israel is more likely to start a war than both of the two, and in fact most other countries in the world.
Now the whole ME thread question if it is really Israel who starts something or if the war already begins with terrorism is a different one. But when it comes to war in the closer sense, in particularly attacking Syria for example, Israel is one of the most likely countries in the world to start it, for simple strategical reasons as well as even simpler reasons of military strength.
But what does that mean? It just means what I described above, and not that Israel is "the most dangerous country in the world", which was notthe question.
And it definetely isn't anti-semite, not even basically anti-Israel.
Surely there are anti-semites in Europe, as everywhere, but anti-semitism (and anti-"Israelism") is not the reason for an outcome of 60%, so the thread title is indeed quite "unfortunate".
You just have to think about the prerequisites.
First there is the question, according to the article worded:
Tell me if in your opinion it [the country in question] presents or not a threat to peace in the world.
Second, what is "peace in the world"? Though IceBlaZe may have a point when it comes to morals (his and also mine in this case), "peace in the world" does basically mean "absence of war in the world". In other words, if you ask people if they see a country as a threat to peace in the world most will say if they think the country is likely to start a war (or if they think it is already engaging in it).
Now with these prerequisites it becomes obvious that the result is not dictated by anti-semitism.
Though I for example would by no means prefer for example living in Iran or North Korea to living Israel or having one of those two countries as a neighbour to Israel I do think that Israel is more likely to start a war than both of the two, and in fact most other countries in the world.
Now the whole ME thread question if it is really Israel who starts something or if the war already begins with terrorism is a different one. But when it comes to war in the closer sense, in particularly attacking Syria for example, Israel is one of the most likely countries in the world to start it, for simple strategical reasons as well as even simpler reasons of military strength.
But what does that mean? It just means what I described above, and not that Israel is "the most dangerous country in the world", which was notthe question.
And it definetely isn't anti-semite, not even basically anti-Israel.
Surely there are anti-semites in Europe, as everywhere, but anti-semitism (and anti-"Israelism") is not the reason for an outcome of 60%, so the thread title is indeed quite "unfortunate".
phoenix_night
Deity
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Rephrase: I don't think the results of the poll (Israel in first place) are down to anti-semitism.
Anti-Israeli antagonism apart, YES.
Yes, of course.
Not only Israel is the reason for the upcoming WW3, it's also the reincarnation of injustice.
It must've played some part.
It's there in whatever scale and it affects some people's opinions about Israel without a doubt.
phoenix_night
Deity
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Excellent post Hitro.
That should clear things up.
phoenix_night
Deity
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I was merely alluding to the fact that some people don't see Israel as "the justice", as just, or even legitimate. Which would obviously lead to more votes for Israel.
What surprises me is that countries recently considered as pro-Israeli (The Netherlands, Lichtenstein) had a majority voting Israel, and country(/ies ?) recently considered as pro-Palestinian (France) voted for Israel less.
Richard III
Duke of Gloucester
Also agreed. I guess, with all the pissing back and forth, I was a little skeptical; I think we all know that there are SOME anti-semites in Europe (clearly not the majority
) and I think we all know how they'd vote. I just doubt, seriously, that this was what political folks would call "material to the result."
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Well, aside from the fact that polls like that shouldn't be taken too seriously you should think about where these considerations come from.
Who says the Netherlands are more "pro-Israel" than France and why? And what means pro-Israel?
Now assuming the French government was more hostile towards Israel than the Netherlands' (I don't want to discuss here if that is the case), how much does that say about the people?
Chirac got not even 20% in the first vote, and that's not even 20% of the far less than 100% that actually voted. And then the stand towards Israel is hardly the only decisive factor in the decision for almost everyone.
That is why it is so wrong to attribute the government's view on a single issue on the whole people or even the majority. There is no reason whatsoever to be sure about that without further research. A single issue is practically never the reason for the decision of every voter, and the majority of voters isn't the same as "the people".
A very good example for that is Spain in the Iraq issue. While the Spanish government was probably the most pro-war government in continental Europe the Spanish population was in every poll the most anti-war population in all of Europe. So there would be no reason at all to call "the Spanish" or "Spain" pro-war.
Leha
ooseepoosee
I think this poll should be taken very seriously and people much smarter than me and you take it seriously right now . Why ?
I'll explain why . It is obvious to a little kid that Israel is not a biggest threat to the world peace , at least not bigger than Syria and of course not bigger than North Korea . Some members on this forum say " why you are allways bring this down to anti-semitism " ? Guys , do you know how pogroms started in Poland ?
Do you know how pogroms started in Ukraine ? Why are you closing your eyes to the obvious ? 60% of grown up , intelligent people , are sure that Israel is more danger than N.Korea , God Almighty ! Never mind all this " situation in the ME" bull**** . I tell you what , jews were killed before not because they started III World War . They were killed because majority thought they are too smart , too rich and too DANGEROUS . Think about it .
Kinniken
Riding with William
Thinking Israel is dangerous = anti-semitism? Hmm, I must really hate arabs and Koreans then.
Seriously leha, I understand that such a poll would upset Israelis a lot. However I also think that you are making too much of it - most respondent probably thought that likelihood of a war involving Israel was greater than one involving North Korea, something I agree to.
The recent bombing of a terrorist camp in Syria (which, BTW, I believe is morally quite justified as long as Israel is certain of its intelligence) supports that view.
Phantom Lord
live by the sword
First of all, today is not yesterday. Yesterday was about a psychopath named Hitler in a distorted country named Deutsches Reich, today is about a thing named Middle East conflict in which a country named Israel plays a key role.
It is obvious that people vote for Israel as a danger for peace based on words and actions of the Israel government and not because Israel is jewish. I personally simply don't care if you're jewish or buddhist or muslim, but I do care about that powderkeg that could theoretically start WW3 or at least lead to a large scale war in ME.
Leha
ooseepoosee
Kinniken , I'd really wanted those 60% were voting by the same reasons you brought here , but :
1. I don't believe it is so .
2. they should point at the whole ME with Israel , because we are not only ones making worries here . Someone said earlier that's because we have stronger military than , say , Syria , so what , we are more dangerous than Syria ? If Syria gives Hizballah chemical weapons it can't start IIIWW ?
Leha
ooseepoosee
First , I didn't talked in my post about Germany , I talked about Poland and Ukraine .
Second , one of great men said " If we don't know our past , we have no future "
So , please , explain me why Israel is more dangerous than Syria , Iran , North Korea , Egypt , Russia ( I lived in Russia and think it's VERY dangerous with all those nukes and total disorder ) ?
Kinniken
Riding with William
Maybe because people believe, not altogether falsely, that countries like Syria are unlikely to start a "hot war" because they would lose it bad, while Israel could get fed up one day of the undercover support of Iran and Syria to terrorist groups and decide to use their superior military to try and settle the question.
BTW, I doubt Syria would dare give Hizbullah NBC weapons.
The fact that, as Iceblaze mentioned, traditionally "pro-Israelis" countries had more people voting "Israel" reenforce my view.
Phantom Lord
live by the sword
At the time of the progroms the state we call Poland today was a part of Das Deutsche Reich, which should not be confused with Germany. Besides that Poland got shifted west a few hundred kilometers in the process IIRC, which makes things quite difficult. You just can't talk about these borders without giving a date as well. For example I'm a quarter polish refering to the actual borders. On the other hand I have a lot of polish friends who are german for the same reason, because they way back were german.
And I did not say Israel is more dangerous than Syria, Iran, North Korea, Egypt, Russia.
But the governments of Syria, Iran, North Korea, Egypt, Russia don't talk of retaliation every day on every TV in every living room. Altough the government of North Korea certainly talks a lot of total nonsense these days.
But I somehow have a certain feeling that you just don't care too much about what people are trying to explain to you in this thread. If that poll is correct, Israel has an image problem and Israel should think about that and not about "Europe's" ability to judge what's dangerous and what's not. Blaming others is useless. And if the poll is not correct, well who cares?
And I did not say Israel is more dangerous than Syria, Iran, North Korea, Egypt, Russia.
But the governments of Syria, Iran, North Korea, Egypt, Russia don't talk of retaliation every day on every TV in every living room. Altough the government of North Korea certainly talks a lot of total nonsense these days.
But I somehow have a certain feeling that you just don't care too much about what people are trying to explain to you in this thread. If that poll is correct, Israel has an image problem and Israel should think about that and not about "Europe's" ability to judge what's dangerous and what's not. Blaming others is useless. And if the poll is not correct, well who cares?
Leha
ooseepoosee
I recommend you to re-read some history books , I talked about pogroms in Poland in 19th sentury . It has nothing to do with Nazis .
I do understand what people trying to explain me here , but problem is , when I was child in Russia , I failed to understand why other kids called me "jewish face" and refused to play with me . May be they thought I represent a danger to their happiness ?? May be they were afraid that one day I'll turn them into lepers ?? They were like 100% if you make a poll .
test_specimen
hope lost
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Could someone please clarify what "Anti-Semitism" is?
(I'm willing to change whatever I thought it is)
(I'm willing to change whatever I thought it is)
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