(7-11) Hospital and Medical Lab Rework

[Phosphoraptor]

This is a proposal to rework the late game Growth buildings which dont feel great to build since growth itself is worth much less in the late game. Production is much better spent on processes, Victory progression and units, so these buildings are often left unbuilt as they cant really compete with the above alternatives. The proposal will attempt to rework these buildings by trimming the less impactful bonuses and changing them to have a purpose other than growth or have growth provide larger rewards more geared towards victory conditions.

These building changes are together in a proposal since I am exchanging some mechanics between them.

Hospital
Current:
+2Food, +1 Food per 10 pop
7 Maintenance
5% Food to Sci conversion
+15 HP Heal
-1 Poverty

Proposed:
+2 Food, +1 Food per 10 pop
7 Maintenance
5% Food to Sci conversion
(EDIT) Specialists produce +1 Food (from Specs consume 1 less food)
+2 Scientist, Engineer, Merchant base yields
+15 HP Heal
-1 Poverty
-2 Unhappiness from Urbanization

The Hospital now is mainly built as an expensive healing station. The food yields have marginal impact in the late game and the small science yields are not going to get players to work food tiles. (140 Food for 7 Science is needed to get break even with the maintenance alone, which is excessive at that stage of the game in most cities)
The proposed Hospital now boosts the power of Specialist cities (especially for Industry and Freedom) by allowing them to sustain more Specialists and.get more out of them, this also allows cities that are mostly working less valuable tiles to instead work Specialist slots for more useful yields.

Thematically Hospitals became more widespread to help sustain a ballooning urban population in the 1800s which was prone to diseases and epidemics, so the bonuses are more geared towards urban Specialists.

Medical Lab
Current:
+15% Food kept after Citizen birth
8 Maintenance
+2 pop on build
+2 Scientist, Engineer, Merchant base yields
-1 Poverty

Proposed:
+15% Food kept after Citizen birth
8 Maintenance
+2 pop on build
(EDIT 1) Gain 400 Science on Citizen birth (from 500 sci on birth)
+2 Scientist, Engineer, Merchant base yields
-1 Poverty

The Medical Lab currently provides a respectable amount of yields, but not being victory focused is not great for an Atomic Era building. This rework makes it an instant yield Science Victory Building, granting a science bulb on build (and on picking Order's Resettlement) to push for Spaceship techs, and allowing players to exchange growth and happiness for victory progress.

(FOR EDIT 1) Some rough calcs for Med Lab costs:
2250 hammers in city with +40% hammers (windmill+train/seaport) -> about 1600 actual hammers -> 400 science from research process equivalent (opportunity cost)

If low on gold also consider having to work wealth to make up for 30 - 50+ turns after building to sci victory (or just sell it ) -> 240 - 400+ process yields equivalent (opportunity cost)

Counting growth in cities with 20 - 25 pop after +2 pop -> need 1000 - 1500 growth (45% carry over from buildings, abt 10+25% growth from happiness bonus and rationalism) -> about 400 - 600 food needed to get citizen birth for 400 science -> about 80% food as extra sci at that size

800 science upfront on build

If you can sustain growth the building will be very good, otherwise it is meh, I think this a good spot to leave it at

(EDIT 2) Hospital no longer loses -1 Poverty

 

[Stalker0]

My thoughts:

1) Hospital: I can see it, the only thing I question is te -1 food for specialists. There are several methods to reduce that right now, and adding 1 on top....how low does that actually go for specialists that have rationalism and freedom + this?
2) Medical Lab: The idea of instant yields on pop has merit. But not sure if it should be science, we already complain about science being too quick in the late game. HOWEVER, I also think late game science is too dependent on GS....so if we were to consider this along with a GS nerf I think that's a reasonable way to go.

 

[hokath]

Does the read correctly?
OP says 500 science on citizen birth, but then the explanatory text says "instant yield... granting a science bulb on build", which sounds like it is meant to be like the Circus/Zoo/etc.

 

[Stalker0]

Does the read correctly?
OP says 500 science on citizen birth, but then the explanatory text says "instant yield... granting a science bulb on build", which sounds like it is meant to be like the Circus/Zoo/etc.

Because the medical lab gives you +2 pop immediately, this building would grant you 1000 science upon completion, and then 500 science for every pop thereafter. That's how I read it.

 

[hokath]

Ah that makes sense! Silly me.

 

[AndreyK]

I think that specialists comsume -1 food is almost useless, as it doesn't go below 1. 500 science on pop just too much.

 

[azum4roll]

With Tradition and Freedom, specialist already costs less than a non-specialist. Further reducing it does nothing.

 

[hokath]

I think that specialists comsume -1 food is almost useless, as it doesn't go below 1.

Well it's effectively +1 food per specialist worked. So that could be quite a bit more than the current hospital if you had a lot of slots being worked.

With Tradition and Freedom, specialist already costs less than a non-specialist. Further reducing it does nothing.

Though Tradition is only in the capital, right?

 

[azum4roll]

Well it's effectively +1 food per specialist worked. So that could be quite a bit more than the current hospital if you had a lot of slots being worked.

Then change it to +1 on specialists.

 

[Legen]

1) Hospital: I can see it, the only thing I question is te -1 food for specialists. There are several methods to reduce that right now, and adding 1 on top....how low does that actually go for specialists that have rationalism and freedom + this?

Rationalism's Empiricism was supposed to add +1 Food per citizen, as per proposal "(5-37) Rationalism Reordering", instead of reducing food consumption. I've recently reported the bug on github.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

With Tradition and Freedom, specialist already costs less than a non-specialist. Further reducing it does nothing.

Ok Ill change to +1 specialist food since there are cases where it is useless

 

[Phosphoraptor]

Some rough calcs for Med Lab costs:
2250 hammers in city with +40% hammers (windmill+train/seaport) -> about 1600 actual hammers -> 400 science from research process equivalent (opportunity cost)

If low on gold also consider having to work wealth to make up for 30 - 50+ turns after building to sci victory (or just sell it ) -> 240 - 400+ process yields equivalent (opportunity cost)

Counting growth in cities with 20 - 25 pop after +2 pop -> need 1000 - 1500 growth (45% carry over from buildings, abt 10+25% growth from happiness bonus and rationalism) -> about 400 - 600 food needed to get citizen birth -> about 100% food as extra sci at that size

Seems pretty strong, ill tune down the numbers a bit

 

[Stalker0]

2250 hammers in city with +40% hammers (windmill+train/seaport) -> about 1600 actual hammers -> 400 science from research process equivalent (opportunity cost)

Not quite. While your right that the building windmill bonus would not apply, the +25% bonus from trains and seaports applies to all production.

So the actual is 2009 hammers = ~502 science


A possible exploit use case as a test example. Lets say we plopped down a late game colonist city, stopped pop growth, and immediately went for a medical lab. Then we uncap it and let it grow. How much science would it make, and would it offset the costs of the new city?

 

[Anarcomu]

What about a one-time bonus to science on pop when built, and on new pop afterward ? No cheesing that way.
BTW medical labs can't be sold, same thing applies to any building that is either upkeep-free, or gives instant yields/bonuses.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

What about a one-time bonus to science on pop when built, and on new pop afterward ? No cheesing that way.
BTW medical labs can't be sold, same thing applies to any building that is either upkeep-free, or gives instant yields/bonuses.

The science on pop applies to all citizen births, not just on build

Also is the no sell instant yield building built into the game or part of VP changes? Just curious

 

[Phosphoraptor]

A possible exploit use case as a test example. Lets say we plopped down a late game colonist city, stopped pop growth, and immediately went for a medical lab. Then we uncap it and let it grow. How much science would it make, and would it offset the costs of the new city?

That exploit will be quite slow to set up since you need to rush the whole chain of buildings (the last 2 cost like 2000 production each), get improvements/eng/TR to get the production, (which is not a lot when all you have are 6 pops), save gold to rush. Even then you might not have enough turns left to get loads of pop growth after building it because someone has already won the game.

If you do pull it off though it gives 3600 sci for growing to 15 pop, this takes maybe 30 turns if you run a few internal TRs and a lot more if not.
This means depending on your TR situation you can get a few effective 100+ sci/turn cities in the endgame.

It is a pretty strong micro to do, but has hidden costs like less trade gold/ spaceship prod TR, more unhappiness, may lose it to endgame aggression (not building defence buildings)

Does city unhappiness affect yields? This kind of city will usually be on marginal land with poor tiles and will rack up lots of unhappiness.

 

[Anarcomu]

The science on pop applies to all citizen births, not just on build

I was thinking of something like this (numbers subject to change) :
Instead of :

• Gain 400 Science on Citizen birth

We have :

• Gain 50 Science per Citizen in the city when build,
• Gain 50 Science when a new Citizen is born.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

I was thinking of something like this (numbers subject to change) :
Instead of :

• Gain 400 Science on Citizen birth

We have :

• Gain 50 Science per Citizen in the city when build,
• Gain 50 Science when a new Citizen is born.

I think both ways are valid, make a counterproposal and see which one is wanted more

 

[rkkn]

Does city unhappiness affect yields? This kind of city will usually be on marginal land with poor tiles and will rack up lots of unhappiness.

science isn't affected. and instant yields aren't affected either. GROWTH, however, is strongly affected by unhappiness. You'll have a hard time growing a very unhappy city to high population.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't like how the earlier buildings of the same line (Aqueduct, Grocer) remove Poverty but stops once it reaches Hospital.

With this change, the only buildings that specifically reduce Poverty are Aqueduct, Grocer, and Customs House (for some reason), the least out of the 4 needs.