7.21 Beta Concerns

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Soverayne

Chieftain
Joined
May 11, 2011
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"20% food storage with Sanitation System (was 40%)."

Is the aqueduct reduced to 20% too or is this just a penalty for Ghandi? I might understand the balance because of the extra food from river tiles but as Ghandi using your mod I have started without a river and not all cities can be founded on rivers.

# Added the Dōjō, a new unique building for Japan.
* +30XP for land units.
* +1 for each Iron or Horse nearby.
* Replaces the Barracks.

Very concerned about this. With Autocracy you can get +75 exp for Japanese units. Which means your only 3 fights from blitz. An ability that, given Japan's UA, is extremely powerful. I know Japan is supposed to be a very good military but this UB seems too much to me. It's giving an advantage to a civ that already has an advantage in that category.

-50% damage from air units and nukes for cities with a Military Base.

I like the nukes reduction but why the air? Can't people just stock fighters on intercept to stop bombers and other fighters? Or even anti-air and mobile SAM? Why even have those units if you can so heavily mitigate air with a building.

Other than those 3 things. Love the changes.
 
I will agree with the military base. I think the nuke reduction is a great idea...but people should be countering air attacks with interception, not with a building imo.
 
The sanitation system's effect is similar to the Iroquois Longhouse -- improves a terrain type while having slightly less of the normal bonus.

Gandhi is the only leader with a river priority, which the game handles immediately after coastal priorities. This means he will start without a river only if there are several of the four coast-priority leaders present:

  • Spain
  • Polynesia
  • Denmark
  • England
Standard maps have 8 players/regions, so Gandhi could conceivably start without rivers nearby if:

  • These 4 leaders are present in the game.
  • 1/2 of the world's regions have no river tiles.
  • All four of these leaders are placed in the only coastal+river regions.
I rarely see games with all four of these leaders. Statistically it's more likely for us to have 1-2, and if 2 of the leaders are present the land area of the world must be 3/4 river-free. This is possible, but so unusual on normal map scripts, I'm not too concerned about it. I started about 20-30 games as Gandhi while testing out his UB and each one of those games had a river nearby. :)

Since the Dōjō only affects new units it's actually more useful in the early game than late game. By the midgame most of my land army is already built. It basically gives us a 1-tech head start by letting us get 2 promotions before an Armory is constructed. The Armory doesn't provide an additional promotion above that, so I typically start building my army with Japan right after Barracks go up.

Samurai and the Shrine always felt too late to have a significant impact, so I've been thinking about ways to shift the leader around since December. Out of the options available (which are somewhat limited) an experience bonus to land units fits perfectly. It's highly unique, lets Japan play a distinctively different style than other military civs (such as China), and fits the history of autocratic military leaders.

Regarding military bases:

  • I never have the need to build castles, much less military bases, so this is primarily an AI buff.
  • It only protects the city's strength bar and provides no protection to units.
  • When the city comes under serious attack it's usually a sign the battle is already lost.
  • Bombers were also buffed, so they're basically a little stronger against units and a little weaker vs cities.
 
Wow - what a beta!

I "third" Military Bases cutting only the nuke effect in half... although to argue against myself, MB's are expensive, and you're probably not going to build them everywhere...

.,.unless Autocracy still makes you rich, of course. I'm looking forward to seeing the effects of the new SOW.

Moving the Steam Mill to the the Windmill slot is brilliant. That should really help England. I assume that each civ can only build one Foundry, just like one Ironworks?

Even more of a masterstroke is the cranking up of Militaristic CS. Now they are worth allying with no matter what sort of game you're playing. I do wonder whether 50/100% spawn rate is more balanced, though, with regard to ROI.

I feel bad for Ghandi... and just after I'd finally found a replacement for my Pioneer Fort buzz! Did you play with them and think it was too much? I thought it made them a killer civ, but still within an acceptable range.

Soverayne makes a good argument against the Dojo, but Japan is a middle-of-the-road AI civ, and the same went for its results in the current poll.
 
The Dojo synergizes well with the Samurai also - with the free Shock I promo, it's two xp buildings or a few fights with Blitz and/or March. I've argued before that I'd prefer a non-combat bonus for Japan, but this is a well thought out UB concept and I look forward to playing them again. I can't wait til I get my new GPU so I can play civ again!:D
 
The effects of the production buildings were not changed, only their names, so the Foundry is a one-per-player national wonder. :)

I originally tried militaristic CSs at 50/100% but found the reward time for friend status was typically longer than the time it took for friendship to expire, so no unit was rewarded. 75% should generally solves this. Alliance does give big benefits other than the unit rewards: resources, and destroys CS influence with civs we're at war with. For most citystates I've found approximately a 2:3 ratio for friend:ally rewards seems to be most balanced... which would be 66.7:100... but I'm trying it out at 75% just to avoid the no-reward problem.

Another solution I've considered is immediately giving a reward when we first pass friendship level with at least one citystate, but this would be somewhat complicated to code and exploitable (friendship expires, renew, expires...)

The feedback I've seen indicates the fun from playing Gandhi is getting very big cities. The two factors in this are 1) food supply and 2) happiness. Growth rate (income-consumption) and food storage don't affect how large our cities can get, only how quickly we get there. I want to keep growth rate mostly unchanged as Gandhi. Since income affects growth I reduced growth to compensate. This focuses Gandhi on high population and Washington on fast growth, with Montezuma as a middle ground.


@Seek
It might be stronger as Japan to build an army, do an early war, then upgrade to Samurai. I've been trying that out in my test games so far. The reason for this is 15xp is best in the early game and becomes weaker over time (30/15=200%, better than 45/30=150%). 30xp is enough to immediately get the Siege promotion... or alternatively, it's very close for archers to get March (at 60xp). I get drill promotions for my swords so it doesn't collide with the later free shock promo.
 
Seek said:
Should be here by Tuesday. (Unless I can figure out how to fix Win XP in bootcamp, but I think that's hopeless.:p)

**Free Tip of the Day: Don't drink and force-quit background functions that may be important, even if they are using 95% of your cpu!:lol:
Click to expand...

So you play on a Mac, but with Boot Camp? I have an older Macbook, so figured that was impossible. Luckily for me, I only know how to force-quit foreground functions!
 
Thalassicus said:
The feedback I've seen indicates the fun from playing Gandhi is getting very big cities. The two factors in this are 1) food supply and 2) happiness. Growth rate (income-consumption) and food storage don't affect how large our cities can get, only how quickly we get there. I want to keep growth rate mostly unchanged as Gandhi. Since income affects growth I reduced growth to compensate. This focuses Gandhi on high population and Washington on fast growth, with Montezuma as a middle ground.
Click to expand...

Good, because the big cities are fun. And now that you too the trouble to spell it out, that is indeed how Washington and Montezuma play. So I'm looking forward to continued play with Gandhi (and will revisit George one of these days - too many good civs, Thal).
 
I don't know what this is, but I just lost my first expansion city to a warrior and an archer. The archer was the biggest contributor to the capture, providing 4 hits a pop on my new little city and the warrior did more damage every turn than the city did to him. There were two warriors, but I took one out with the warrior I had garrisoned in the city. I was hoping to just do a lot of damage to him so he wouldn't be much of an attacker and my warrior would stay safe in the city, but unfortunately my warrior was too successful and completely eliminated the Persian warrior which placed him in a bad position. The enemy archer then eliminated my warrior before returning to his siege duties.

I thought removing the siege promotion from the archers was geared to removing them from siege duties, but if an archer can knock 4 pts. off a city each turn, he is a very effective weapon even without the promotion and seems to make catapults superfluous......
 
I typically target warriors with my cities instead of archers, because they have lower strength (6 vs 7).

I'm guessing this was very early in the game, so if we assume no promotions:

7 * (1 - 0.25) = 5 Archer
7 * (1) = 7 Spearman
13 * (1 + .5) = 20 Catapult

Base city strength is around 10. I typically see archers deal 1-2 damage per hit to cities; catapults average around 6. If an archer delt more damage for many turns in a row it was probably just a string of bad luck.
 
Thalassicus said:
I typically target warriors with my cities instead of archers, because they have lower strength (6 vs 7).

I'm guessing this was very early in the game, so if we assume no promotions:

7 * (1 - 0.25) = 5 Archer
7 * (1) = 7 Spearman
13 * (1 + .5) = 20 Catapult

Base city strength is around 10. I typically see archers deal 1-2 damage per hit to cities; catapults average around 6. If an archer delt more damage for many turns in a row it was probably just a string of bad luck.
Click to expand...

4 Pts. seems to be the standard pop for AI archers; MY archers, of course, only do 1-2 pts to a city.
 
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