[Vote] (7-64) New Coastal Artillery Promotion For Cannon and Later Siege Units

[Yngwie]

Moderator Action: The original proposal didn't get sponsored, but enough people indicated that they were interested in the Bonus vs Naval proposal that I decided to make this its own proposal. - Recursive

Proposal:
Cannon and later siege Units gain "Bonus vs Naval" promotion available after "Field I"

Unused Bonus vs Naval promotion is now renamed Coastal Artillery, has the following effects:
+50% strength against naval melee Units
+50% strength against naval ranged Units
+50% strength against carrier Units
retained on upgrade

Uses this icon, made by Asterix Rage:


Sponsored by @pineappledan.

Old proposal details:

Spoiler :

Also included: Artillery and later siege Units gain "Anti-Tank Rounds" promotion available after "Siege I"

Rationale: ordinary archery Units suffer penalty vs both armored and naval Units. So, artillery supposed to be kind of anti-naval and anti-tank guns, when it necessary. This possible promotions will emphasize the role of artillery vs Units

 

[azum4roll]

Anti-tank Rounds available on Siege undermines the unique roles of Bazooka and Helicopter Gunship.
Bonus vs Naval needs to be redefined in VP since it's a vanilla promotion.

 

[Yngwie]

Anti-tank Rounds available on Siege undermines the unique roles of Bazooka and Helicopter Gunship.
Bonus vs Naval needs to be redefined in VP since it's a vanilla promotion.

The problem of Bazooka and Helicopters - they are available 5 lines after the landship. So, there is no problem to add some possible (not direct) promotions for most suitable early Units. Anyway - Bazookas and Helicopters will take the field cause they gain these bonuses right from the start

 

[azum4roll]

Landships and Tanks having no explicit counters is intended. It rewards those who have Oil to have stronger units for a time. They still aren't unbeatable and can be walled with a line of Infantry.

 

[Yngwie]

Landships and Tanks having no explicit counters is intended. It rewards those who have Oil to have stronger units for a time. They still aren't unbeatable and can be walled with a line of Infantry.

The same rationale can be used for any Unit which is not yet balanced by other. But lets be honest. In vanilla we had anti-tank guns - they were not very interesting to use, so there no AT Guns in VP. But it doesn't mean that some other gun cannot be modernized to be a threat to the armored Units. All offensive weapons always balanced by defensive in a short time. In game this time should be equal to 1-2 lines, not 5 like in current version.
Speaking about oil: what about planes? Why they are countered? This contradicts your logic

 

[azum4roll]

Speaking about oil: what about planes? Why they are countered? This contradicts your logic

I never mentioned every unit that uses Oil must not be explicitly countered.

But since when was artillery excelled at damaging tanks (over damaging infantry)?

 

[Yngwie]

I never mentioned every unit that uses Oil must not be explicitly countered.

But since when was artillery excelled at damaging tanks (over damaging infantry)?

I guess, since the part of artillery were modified to be anti-tank guns (AT guns still an artillery, don't you think so?). But again - we don't have AT Guns in VP, so the only way to represent this evolution is to give a promotion (at least i don't see others without readding AT Guns)

 

[azum4roll]

I guess, since the part of artillery were modified to be anti-tank guns (AT guns still an artillery, don't you think so?). But again - we don't have AT Guns in VP, so the only way to represent this evolution is to give a promotion (at least i don't see others without readding AT Guns)

Anti-tank guns are designed to be anti-tank on construction. Promotions reflect battlefield experience, and any design change should be represented by upgrades.

The trivia on the Civ5 wiki Anti-Tank Gun page also states that these eventually failed to work against tanks with thicker armor. I can see them working against WWI Landships, but not WWII Tanks.

 

[Yngwie]

Lets just look at calibers there
Do you think that our current Artillery with 105 mm missile would be less effective than for example 8.8 cm Flak when it comes to direct shelling of WW2 tanks?

 

[Stalker0]

honestly I don’t see enough tanks that I don’t know if would use an anti tank promotion even if I had it.

Now an anti naval promotion I could definately see for artillery

 

[ma_kuh]

I think generally speaking, bonuses to cities should also apply to fortified and naval units, and vice versa. I think using specific promotions for Anti-Naval just adds promotion bloat and makes siege units one-trick units if you specialize them for anti-ship. Siege should have the baseline niche of ranged city killer, (infantry) wall breakers, and island defenders.

 

[Rekk]

Proposal:
Cannon and later siege Units gain "Bonus vs Naval" promotion available after "Field I"
Artillery and later siege Units gain "Anti-Tank Rounds" promotion available after "Siege I"

Rationale: ordinary archery Units suffer penalty vs both armored and naval Units. So, artillery supposed to be kind of anti-naval and anti-tank guns, when it necessary. This possible promotions will emphasize the role of artillery vs Units

Does Siege need even more bonuses against naval? The field promotions all by themselves increase damage dealt to naval units.
Anti-Tank rounds if they are going to exist, should be on the Field tree.

 

[azum4roll]

This should be two proposals, btw. I'd vote for the anti-naval.

Siege should have the baseline niche of ranged city killer, (infantry) wall breakers, and island defenders.

And they're already good at the latter two if going for Field. The anti-naval promotion is for extra specialization, and should be a niche pick (like Amphibious, Woodsman, etc.)

 

[Phosphoraptor]

Isnt Field already anti naval since water can be “Open Terrain”?

 

[Stalker0]

Isnt Field already anti naval since water can be “Open Terrain”?

That is the equivalent of saying shock is already the cover promotion because the +10% CS always applies against ranged attacks.

An “anti-X” promotion gives you a larger boost against a specific class of units in exchange for no bonus elsewhere.

We can argue if such a promotion would have good value but it’s not the same as a general promotion granting a small bonus to most attacks

 

[pineappledan]

My 4UC mod has a unique promotion for one of its siege units called "Coastal Artillery"

Coastal artillery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It gives 33% RCS vs naval ranged and melee units (but not carriers or subs).
Asterix_Rage made an icon for it; it looks like this:

I don't think we need another anti-tank promotion. We already have Ambush for gun units, bazookas and helicopters. It just seems excessive to give every unit type an anti-tank promotion.

 

[Recursive]

Moderator Action: The original proposal didn't get sponsored, but enough people indicated that they were interested in the Bonus vs Naval proposal that I decided to make this its own proposal.

 

[azum4roll]

I assume this means the promotion is unlocked at Gunpowder? Don't think you can lock them behind specific units.

 

[pineappledan]

That’s a good idea. Could unlock at gunpowder.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.