• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

[Vote] (7-91) Integrate 4UC Mod Into Vox Populi

Should we integrate 4UC into Vox Populi? (READ DETAILS BELOW!)


  • Total voters
    295
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Recursive

Already Looping
Moderator
Supporter
Joined
Dec 19, 2017
Messages
5,832
Location
Antarctica
Here it is, the poll you've all been waiting for / dreading. Welcome to the first VP Congress Special Session! The question before the assembly is...

Should we integrate the 4UC mod, currently maintained by @pineappledan (but containing the work of many modders), into Vox Populi, thus giving every civilization four unique components instead of two?

Obviously, this will require a supermajority vote, as it would be one of the largest changes in the history of the project. For this proposal to pass, it will need at least 50 Yea votes, and 70% of the votes must be Yea votes. I selected the 70% threshold today based on an overwhelming community consensus after the (7-90) and (7-91) votes; for more details, see this post.

In addition, the proposal must be sponsored, and its sponsorship must be approved by a Project Overseer. I approve the sponsorship if and only if a version of all 43 civ kits gets sponsored. If even one of them doesn't get sponsored, the entire proposal cannot be integrated until it does. This is because we can't have one civ with less unique components than all the others. If this situation arises, I'll deal with it then.

Due to the complexity of the mod and the amount of dev time/resources that would be required to integrate it, there is a lot of information to cover. Here are the key points about this vote:


1. The vote today is on whether or not to add 2 new fully DLL-integrated unique components to each civilization in the game. It is NOT on whether to integrate all 43 civ kits exactly as proposed by pineappledan, but it IS an agreement to integrate the version that the community sponsors and votes on. If this vote passes:
  • Session #8 will be devoted to the 43 civ threads and have no Proposal Phase. The community can submit counterproposals for all of the 43 civs during the Counterproposal Phase.
  • During the Voting Phase, if only one version of a civ kit is sponsored, that one will be integrated (with no followup vote).
  • If multiple versions of a civ kit are sponsored, the vote will be between the multiple versions, with no Nay vote option.
  • DLL-integrated means that any new code required to make the new components function will be added as a general ability to the game core and can be used by any unit or building. We will not be using Lua script workarounds or dummy buildings.
  • All relevant art assets will be merged into the VP files as well.

2. @pineappledan has created a thread in the VP Congress subforum for each of the 43 civs, detailing his proposed version of the two extra unique components for each civ. Permission was acquired to use any assets created by others. Some of these are modified. This means that if your only reason for voting for 4UC's integration is the kit of a handful of civs that you like to play with, you should check the thread to see what he has proposed, because it might be different from the playable version of the mod. Of course, counterproposing with the component from the playable 4UC version is an option, though permission issues could arise.


3. To clear up a misconception: deleting unique components from the database is, from a technical perspective, much easier than integrating them. The integration of 4UC can actually be reversed relatively easily in a modmod, and because the components' functions will be DLL-integrated, the functionality can also be adjusted, swapped between components, etc. fairly easily. We won't be building a lot of extra code on top of 4UC-dependent code. That being said, if this is passed and integrated, playing with 2UC in a balanced way is going to become a lot more difficult, particularly as future VP Congress Sessions continue to make changes to the game balance. Additionally, it will require another 70% threshold supermajority vote to remove it from the base mod, so it will probably be here to stay. Or as @balparmak puts it:
About the case of a 2UC modmod if 4UC gets integrated: as others said, it'll be technically easy. However, the core balance (units, buildings, policies etc. etc.) of VP will almost certainly change with the new components, I think that'll be the main problem for 2UC. It'll really need an active community, pretty much like a VP congress, to agree on balance changes.


4. If this vote doesn't pass, Session #8 will take place as normal and all 43 civ threads will be moved to Failed Proposals.


5. The vote is set to last until the end of June. If at the end of June the outcome is not conclusive, I might extend it for another week or two at my discretion.


6. If you want to playtest 4UC and haven't played with it before, you can here, but that version will have differences from pineappledan's proposed versions, so it's not an identical experience: 3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread


7. @L. Vern has recorded data on 650 AI games played with 4UC which provides some data on the playable version of 4UC's effect on game balance. As this might be relevant to people's decisions, you can find it here: 650 AI Game 4UC Stats / Analysis

Keep in mind that there are AI issues which may be affecting the balance (e.g., the AI often don't make smart Social Policy choices, which could be affecting the performance of certain civs).


8. Here is the masterlist of all 43 civ threads. Remember to check each civ's proposed kit, as there are differences from the playable version of the mod. Discussion can begin now, although counterproposals can only be made if the supermajority vote to integrate 4UC passes. Remember that the vote in this thread is on adding 2 components and agreeing to implement the components that the community votes on - it is not on whether or not to accept these specific civ kits.

Side Note: I will be adding two additional threads to Session #8 if the vote does pass, because I can: a revote on the "Disable Events System By Default" supermajority vote, and a vote to integrate a rework of the Unit Supply system detailed here, which I am going to make as a modmod and release shortly. Neither of these are related to civ balance, and both of them are special votes following up on previous proposals. And I'm only extending this exception to those two, sorry (their integration will be extremely simple). Other proposals will have to wait until Session #9 if the 4UC vote passes, since a huge chunk of developer time will be going into integrating it.
 
Last edited:
The integration of 4UC can actually be reversed relatively easily in a modmod
It's not as easy as everyone thinks. 4UC has started modifying the base components, and it'll inevitably continue to. A 2UC mod will need to revert all of these changes to bring the game back to a balanced state.

I (and likely other devs) am willing to do work to integrate most of the 4UC abilities into DLL regardless of whether the components themselves are integrated into VP. AI friendliness is another story, as @pineappledan himself doesn't care much about that.

This leaves 2 considerations whether you should vote Yea on this:
1. Should VP be balanced around every civilization having 4 unique components?
2. Should playing with only 2 unique components (without being tempered by the 4UC changes) remain a choice?
 
Last edited:
If 4UC is integrated, playing with 2UC in a balanced way is going to become a lot more difficult, particularly as future VP Congress Sessions continue to make changes to the game balance. No question about it.

Edited for clarity.

AI friendliness is another story, as @pineappledan himself doesn't care much about that.
Teaching the AI to use everything, if 4UC passes, is indeed going to be a challenge. Non-DLL-integrated components generally can't do much in terms of AI modifications.
 
I'd like to take a moment to set out one important reason I think we should pursue integration. This is not the only reason, but I don't want to write a whole essay.

The reason is the accessibility of the content.

We see all the time -- and I know because I try to always answer them -- questions from newcomers about how to install the game. It's easy to forget that many people's experience of obtaining mods is from the Steam workshop. Most of us who write frequently on this forum already know how to mod Civ V upside-down and back-to-front, we know where the ModMods are kept, and many of us even know how to fix them when little things get broken here and there. There's a whole other group of people who don't even know 4UC exists. This is a great shame. The development of 4UC was a true group effort: the current thread you can visit now was actually made for the first playable release, before that there was 500 page-long thread of planning, implementing, and playtesting to which over 20 people actively contributed. I think beside the congress -- which itself is allowing for an incredibly collaborative and fruitful way to develop the game -- it is the single most hopeful and impressive contribution to the game we have achieved in the post-CBP era. The people deserve to see the huge amount of work and love that we've put into the game and we should be proud enough of what we have (and can) accomplish to show them. I am confident this content serves to improve the game and its visibility will impress the casual player and increase the standing and prestige of our great mod.

I want to encourage people who are uncertain of this vote to take the leap and make this change to the mod for the better of everyone, but particularly those that are not even aware we are voting.
Thank you and may your Wonders never be sniped.
 
make this change to the mod for the better of everyone
It's debatable whether introducing more components is better for everyone.
 
The vote at the time of writing (45/52 Yea) is looking great. I can't imagine ever playing without this modmod, and I'd love for the game to be balanced around it.
 
Am I able to change votes after I cast it? Frankly, the reason I joined the forums is because I saw how hot the 4UC topic was becoming, and I'm leaning towards include it, but I do want to see the discussion fully mature before I cast it.
 
Am I able to change votes after I cast it? Frankly, the reason I joined the forums is because I saw how hot the 4UC topic was becoming, and I'm leaning towards include it, but I do want to see the discussion fully mature before I cast it.
Yes you can, after your vote you will have a "change vote" option available.
 
Registered just for this vote ;) But will try to contribute more...

All of my VP games (10+ maybe) include 4UC and it is really nice to see I don't have to check 2 places for updates ;)
Same here!

I'd also like to add a couple things I really enjoy about 4UC:
- It makes the tech tree more interesting. With more uniques, which usually extend the eras your civ has components unlocking in, you're really able to plan a satisfying path in tech unlocks. It gives you more things to look forward to and power spikes to plan your strategy around. Especially when they're on different sides of the tree.
- Having slight pushes into different victory conditions that don't exist in base VP adds a new dimension of gameplay to a lot of civs.
- Representation of new historical eras that make civs feel holistic (e.g Chaebol for Korea).
- Its just plain fun having more uniques to play with
 
can i have more information on the 4uc mod what does it actually do to the vp gameplay?

-edit nvm seems like a good mod adding them
 
Hey guys, I registered just for this vote :)

I never played with 4UC - but more content is always enjoyable. If sanctioned by a clear majority of players an inclusion of 4UC only will give us more stuff to enjoy in CIV5.

Regards
XSamatan
 
This will be a full congress with a counterproposal phase, so, if there's something you don't like you can always propose to remove it, no?
 
It's debatable whether introducing more components is better for everyone.
The only thought I could contribute to such debate is: Nothing in this world has ever been -or will ever be- better for everyone, and
I even suppose, it will be the same thing in the next one...
 
That's why it's a no-brainer for me. I used the mod a bit but felt it was not optimized in some regards. So I would love to have it properly integrated.
It will be optimized either way. As was said:
I (and likely other devs) am willing to do work to integrate most of the 4UC abilities into DLL regardless of whether the components themselves are integrated into VP.
AFAICT, this means that, code-wise, there will be no difference between playing 4UC-integrated VP and 2UC VP with a 4UC modmod.
 
AFAICT, this means that, code-wise, there will be no difference between playing 4UC-integrated VP and 2UC VP with a 4UC modmod.

If this vote passes then sponsorship and development time will actually be allotted to integrate 4UC features. If it fails then a regular congress will take place for all manner of other changes instead. It is not realistic to think integration will happen without a mandate; that is asking devs to work more than twice as hard for something that is completely optional.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom