[Complex] (7-NS) Airstrikes can target and pillage enemy tile improvements

[Xaviarlol]

Proposal
Allow air-units to target tile improvements with Air Strikes. Successful air strikes on tiles pillage the improvement.

Rules
1) If a unit is present on a targeted tile, the air unit will attack the unit as a usual air strike would (will not hit the tile improvement). Therefore only empty tile improvements may be pillaged
2) Air units targeting tile improvements can get intercepted, in the same way as any air strike within intercept range
3) The chance of destroying the tile is based on the net damage done, which is modified by all normal rules of air-strikes, such as intercepts and air defenses, forts and any other modifiers (using the normal formula). The game logic to determine damage is unchanged. The net damage is the % chance of the tile getting pillaged. Eg. if net damage is 20, the chance of a successful pillage is 20%
4) The AI will station air defenses and units on valuable tiles (such as strategic resources and forts) if it believes there is a threat from enemy aircraft
5) Unlike normal pillaging, no gold or healing is granted for pillaging tiles with airstrikes.
6) Missiles can air-strike improvements also (any unit that has the air-strike ability).
7) Successfully pillaged strikes will give a pillage text in the UI, the same way a normal land-based pillage would.
8) Just like normal pillaging, striking a tile improvement that contains a road/railroad and a tile improvement (like a town/mine/farm) will always target the non-road improvement first, and then the road improvement when the building improvement is already pillaged.

Technical
The game logic should act the same way as air-striking a unit or city with 0 base air-defense strength, and then modified by the usual intercept/air parameters. I am hopeful that this will greatly simplify the implementation of this mechanic.

Rationale
It is both realistic and fun to be able to target an enemies infrastructure and economy, and fun to defend important areas with air-defense infrastructure and units.

MAGI: Complex proposal, DLL and UI changes

 

[axatin]

MAGI: We are already past the proposal phase, no new proposals can be made in this session. Proposal vetoed.

EDIT: Sorry, I hadn't noticed that this is a part of a proposal made during proposal phase that had been requested to be split in two parts.

 

[azum4roll]

What is this net damage done? Tiles don't have Combat Strength.

 

[Stalker0]

What is this net damage done? Tiles don't have Combat Strength.

agreed, I think this just has to be a set % for it to work.

 

[hokath]

I think you could do this in Civ IV, right?
It was 100% chance to pillage.

 

[azum4roll]

There are more questions:
1. Can you pillage water tiles, neutral tiles, or even other owned tiles with this?
2. Do planes get XP out of a successful/unsuccessful airstrike on tile?
3. What happens if the tile actually has an invisible unit on it?

 

[drakon717]

You can also extend this to rockets. This will strengthen them and make them more in demand.

 

[azum4roll]

I'd agree on missiles only. There needs to be a cost to do free pillages like that.

My questions 1 and 3 still stand for missiles though.

 

[drakon717]

I can’t speak for the author of the proposal, but this is my opinion.
Regarding the first point: you can only rob enemy tiles and only land tiles, for sea tiles there is a fleet.
On the third point: as far as I know, there are no ground-based invisible units, but in any case, robbery is then impossible.

 

[drakon717]

Я бы согласился только на ракеты.

I agree with you.

 

[Xaviarlol]

What is this net damage done? Tiles don't have Combat Strength.

The base combat strength of a tile improvement is 0 (same as say, a civilian unit). However the net damage is the damage done after all air defense modifiers are tallied up. In other words, it would be the same as if you targeted a worker unit with an air strike. If there is no air defense at all, the unit will do its usual full damage (though I think this damage is modified by the HP of the attacking air unit, but either way it will function the same way as current air-strike mechanics).

agreed, I think this just has to be a set % for it to work.

I think it would be important to allow air-defense to mitigate striking tile improvements. Hopefully my above clarification is valid. When you air-strike a unit in the current game, and you get intercepted, the damage inflicted is much less than if you were not intercepted. This should work the same way for pillage, hence the % chance mechanic based on "net damage".

You can also extend this to rockets. This will strengthen them and make them more in demand.

I assume you are referring to guided missiles, and the answer is absolutely yes. Any unit that can perform air-strikes (missiles can) can strike a tile improvement.

There are more questions:
1. Can you pillage water tiles, neutral tiles, or even other owned tiles with this?
2. Do planes get XP out of a successful/unsuccessful airstrike on tile?
3. What happens if the tile actually has an invisible unit on it?

1. Yes, you can pillage water-based improvements (fisheries, oil platforms etc.) You can only target enemy tiles when at war. You cannot target your own tiles or allied tiles.
2. Yes
3. You will strike the tile improvement. Invisible units cannot defend tile improvements (assuming this is possible technically. If not, then yes, striking an invisible unit will damage the unit, you just won't know that it was there before the strike).


Thanks for the feedback and questions. I will make 2 edits in the OP - a) Clarify that missiles can strike improvements too and b) Test above the damage number tells you if the strike successfully destroyed a tile improvement (this is the same as a land unit pillage message).

 

[Stalker0]

. When you air-strike a unit in the current game, and you get intercepted, the damage inflicted is much less than if you were not intercepted.

It’s actually 0. When an interception happens, the air attack never occurs

 

[Xaviarlol]

It’s actually 0. When an interception happens, the air attack never occurs

Oh yes, sorry you are correct. Even better then!

 

[Stalker0]

Oh yes, sorry you are correct. Even better then!

so this goes back then to the fact that there is no "damage" done in this exercise.

Either:
1) A unit is on the tile, so no pillage happens anyway.
2) A unit is not on the tile and the aircraft is intercepted....so no damage is done (aka no pillage).
3) A unit is not on the tile and the aircraft strike goes through....but does no damage because there is nothing to hit.

So it seems much simpler to just pick a % chance to pillage.

 

[Xaviarlol]

so this goes back then to the fact that there is no "damage" done in this exercise.

Either:
1) A unit is on the tile, so no pillage happens anyway.
2) A unit is not on the tile and the aircraft is intercepted....so no damage is done (aka no pillage).
3) A unit is not on the tile and the aircraft strike goes through....but does no damage because there is nothing to hit.

So it seems much simpler to just pick a % chance to pillage.

With point number 3, if there is no unit and and airstrike goes through, it will do full damage to the tile, assuming no interceptions.

The problem with a fixed chance is that the aircraft's ranged strength won't matter, but I think it should - so stronger aircraft have more damage therefore higher chance of pillaging. A guided missile for example would have close to a 80% chance of destroying the improvement, but a biplane would have more like a 30% chance. I think it is important that the pillage chance is linked to the strength of the aircraft.

But I take your point about the idea of "net damage", I think I can simplify the proposal calculations based on your feedback.

By the way, don't guided missiles still do damage when intercepted? I think they do, but they do less.

 

[Xaviarlol]

It’s actually 0. When an interception happens, the air attack never occurs

On second thought, are you sure about this? I thought only airsweeps do this. Attacking with an airstrike still does damage, but much less, when intercepted I think?
What do guided missiles do? They definitely cause damage even when intercepted. I'm pretty sure all air units have this behavior.. At least in Vanilla.

 

[Stalker0]

On second thought, are you sure about this? I thought only airsweeps do this. Attacking with an airstrike still does damage, but much less, when intercepted I think?
What do guided missiles do? They definitely cause damage even when intercepted. I'm pretty sure all air units have this behavior.. At least in Vanilla.

100% sure, I use aircraft a lot.

When you get intercepted, no attack goes through, heck I don't even think you get Xp for that attack (though not 100% on that one). Guided missiles do nothing when intercepted.

 

[Legen]

Shouldn't there be a differentiation between fighters and bombers for tile pillaging? The latter is the one designed for carpet bombing and sacrifices maneuverability in order to be able to carry enough loadout for that, while the former (especially on older designs) is designed around maneuverability against other aircraft instead.

 

[hokath]

I don't even think you get Xp for that attack

I feel like that's true as well (logic: the attack doesn't happen)

Shouldn't there be a differentiation between fighters and bombers for tile pillaging?

I seem to remember in Civ IV its only the bombers. I think that makes sense.

 

[FinMc]

This strikes me as really OP. Airplanes vs AI is already a turkey shoot once you hit critical mass of planes (bonus points for the OP airport autocracy tenant).

Now I get to not only snipe their units but break their economy/deny them strategic resources? This is a cool feature but I have a feeling it'll end up being a massive buff to human war fighting.