[Complex] (7-NS) Ancient ruins rework:

[Yngwie]

Problem: Now Ancient ruins provide good options, but some of them are still unbalanced. Especially upgrade (Surv. 3 Commando in medieval simply immortal) and Pop (1 pop in small and large Cities - completely different story)

Current situation and proposed change:

• 1 pop => 50 Food
• 15 Culture => 20
• 100 Gold => 75
• 50 Prod => 40
• 35 Science => same
• Additional Land => same
• Map of a City => Reveal nearest ancient ruins and 2 tiles around
• Upgrade => gain supply-free military Unit of current Era
• Faith => same

Rationale:
50 Food seems like a good compromise in the begining of the game.
15 Culture is too weak and there is no excitement when you receive that trifle. Increase to 20
100 Gold is a free Unit. if you found them in first Ruins it's a significant boost. Therefore reduced to 75
50 prod also provide +- free Unit/Building. Deserve some nerf
Additional Land - I thought to propose 120 BGP, but the probllem of instant yields from borders already solved. So, it's ok now
Revealing territory - too powerful in terms of scout XP and... not really useful in terms of bonuses. Nobody cares about other Cities - we only need Ruins. So, it's better to show them instead of your neighbors + less free XP feels more balanced.
Upgrade - as i mentioned before, upgrade is not balanced. So, it is proposed to add mechanics from CTP2 instead. Now player can find a new army in Ruins.

MAGI: Complex proposal, DLL and database changes

 

[rkkn]

Revealing territory - too powerful in terms of scout XP and... not really useful in terms of bonuses. Nobody cares about other Cities - we only need Ruins. So, it's better to show them instead of your neighbors + less free XP feels more balanced.

big disagree with this one
First of all, a ruin that... shows you where to find another ruin? "Sorry, this one's no good. try this other one instead." it's like a dud ruin
Second, "Nobody cares about other Cities" is not true. Having vision on other cities is important for a few things. For example, you can see when it produces a settler or is building a wonder. Or if it's a city state, meeting those is good. Also since it reveals the area around it, if it's a coastal city it can help you determine the shape of the continent. (or even if it's not)

One thing, though, is it'd be nice if it showed cities that are farther away. Instead of a city that you were probably about to run into soon anyway.

 

[Tekamthi]

First of all, a ruin that... shows you where to find another ruin? "Sorry, this one's no good. try this other one instead." it's like a dud ruin
Second, "Nobody cares about other Cities" is not true. Having vision on other cities is important for a few things

From the thematic perspective, it kinda makes more sense a ruin would have info about another ruin rather than a current city that was just founded recently... How did the people that left this ruin behind somehow know there'd be a city there one day?? But the gameplay concerns you've raised are valid. I think I might enjoy it more if it revealed something other than a city, or if the city wasn't right at the middle of the reveal bubble every time.

Upgrade => gain supply-free military Unit of current Era

this one is probably my least favorite -- I'd be happy if it were both of these options, and the upgrade much rarer than it is now, but it is a FUN part of these ruins to get the upgrade.

Maybe unit could get a promotion more often, lost on upgrade, that makes it sorta in between the current era and the next -- but I'd still like to have the full upgrade as a possibility, it's created some very memorable gameplay moments

 

[azum4roll]

The only thing broken about Upgrade ruins is that it's possible to upgrade Scouts into Conquistadors or Bandeirantes, but it's very rare for that to happen. How often are you getting a ruin after Sailing but before Compass? The Scout cannot have been upgraded by ruins either.

 

[rkkn]

The only thing broken about Upgrade ruins is that it's possible to upgrade Scouts into Conquistadors or Bandeirantes, but it's very rare for that to happen. How often are you getting a ruin after Sailing but before Compass? The Scout cannot have been upgraded by ruins either.

hm. so if you cordon off some ruins from your opponents to hold onto until after sailing, you have a chance to get an explorer at the start of classical?

 

[Stalker0]

The only thing broken about Upgrade ruins is that it's possible to upgrade Scouts into Conquistadors or Bandeirantes, but it's very rare for that to happen. How often are you getting a ruin after Sailing but before Compass? The Scout cannot have been upgraded by ruins either.

communitas maps will often produce off the coast islands with ruins where this happens.

 

[Tekamthi]

The only thing broken about Upgrade ruins is that it's possible to upgrade Scouts into Conquistadors or Bandeirantes,

Many years ago when we had zeps in the recon line, I was tech leader in a hotseat game, had just got my explorer upgrades when I found a hut way out at sea, far from any other land mass, and hit the upgrade. Of course this was OP, as I had a Zeppelin when everyone else still had scouts... but I enjoyed the idea of an alternate history where man first learns flight from some ancient flying machine left behind by some past civilization dead and gone for thousands of years... Very "ancient aliens". My roommate opponent was less thrilled with the concept

I don't really see this as a concern that needs fixing, as it occurs sufficiently rarely and usually only affects a single unit

 

[N.Core]

Ancient Ruins should only provide upgrades to earlier units, as it would give you an edge at the start of the game. However, in later parts of the game, I only consider them as a neat free upgrade with no additional benefit whatsoever aside from that unit becoming a bit more powerful. It's not giving you an edge in a sense like Spearman vs promoted Scout would be in the early game.

The upgrade is also almost useless now since only recon units can be upgraded through ruins.
I agree that a ruin providing a supply-free unit is a better reward here, like an ancient tribe giving you their best warrior to fight for you. In early games, more units are better because all players have a small amount of supply.

 

[hokath]

On the +1 pop ruin in particular, I definitely think this could be changed to flat food.
I just got one on my pop 11 capital and that's kinda nuts compared to the other options (beside upgrade).

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.