[Database] (7-NS) Maori Warrior rework

[Yngwie]

Problem: Polynesia don't benefit from ordinary Exlorers, thanks to their UA.

Current Maori:
- 22 CS
- Replace Longswordsman
- Don't require Iron to be built
- Prereq. Tech: Chivalry
- UP: Haka war dance: -15% CS to adjacent enemies

Proposed Maori
- 18 CS
- Replace Explorer
- Available Earlier, don't require harbor, Cost 135 (vs 160)
- Prereq. Tech: Chivalry
- UP: Haka war dance: -15% CS to adjacent enemies + Force enemy Unit to retreat or take double damage (same as Winged Hussar)

Rationale: Polynesia have UU in Medieval Era, which replace Longswordsman, though they have almost nothing in common. Also Polynesia have useless recon Unit in same Era. It is proposed to change basic class of Maori to fiil the gap and make Polynesia more complex and fun. Additional UP proposed to emphasize how scary they are.

AI : it is proposed to save current AI flavors for this Unit (Offense -12, Defense - 12, Recon - 10)

 

[Tekamthi]

I think with MUC mod this will mean UU upgrades into UU. Not sure if this is a problem but it's unusual. And yes muc is just modmod but probably most vp players are muc players

 

[pineappledan]

If this passes I would have to rework Polynesia's extra unit. Can't have a unique scout upgrading directly into another unique scout

 

[Tekamthi]

If this passes I would have to rework Polynesia's extra unit. Can't have a unique scout upgrading directly into another unique scout

I recently played MUC Polynesia -- took off from mainland I started on and only founded in turn 30-40 range on marathon (nearly abandoned it took me so long). Because of plentiful island ruins on huge map (was playing jarcast extra huge), frequency of ruin unit upgrades, and the place of koa in the tech tree, I was able to get a great number of these uu rather early: I used all my early supply to build/buy pathfinders, and only had to pay to upgrade one of them. All the ruin yields resulting from their explorations caught me up quite well so that I was in the top third of civ's by medieval and even got a religion despite very late founding. Great fun...

But almost too powerful in this circumstance: the Koa and their early availability via ruin upgrade, combined with large map for lots of XP, can really slice through the barbarians, so that even the islands full of barbs that might require a major expedition later in game are little trouble to an experienced koa. Moving the 2nd tier recon uu to 3rd would mitigate this specific scenario, but it also spells significant change to early game for Polynesia as a result: a recon focused ancient play will lose much of what makes it attractive currently

 

[pineappledan]

The Koa were designed as a combat scout specifically with the use-case of having to clear out barb-dense island locations in mind. I consider it something that enables their kit, and I'd be sad to lose it.

I'm no longer in the business of changing base components outside of flavours, so I would move the koa around, but I think the civ would be poorer for it.

 

[Tekamthi]

agreed the overall MUC vibe is just about right currently -- OP has some good reasoning, and its not directly the purpose of congress to consider how modmods work with mainbranch, but in this case I'm preferring to leave as-is, even though it might improve VP on its own

 

[pineappledan]

For your consideration, OP, I might suggest making the Maori Warrior a unique Scout, rather than keeping it in Medieval. That way, it can help clear land for polynesian settling, which is part of their core gameplay. Currently, I don't find the MW has much use, but I think I would use them more if they were designed more for PvE. This is precisely the whole in their kit that the current 4UC modmod is aimed at filling with its additional unit.

 

[ScarletArkyning]

Well personally I don’t really like the idea of the Winged Hussar ability getting given to the Māori Warrior. I feel like it debases the uniqueness of both the units. Id prefer some more unique thing. At the same time tho I get it from a flavour point of view. I just don’t know. It’s more about the uniqueness debasement for me.

 

[Tekamthi]

i've been running a mod with 'change port' (the admiral teleport ability) applied to recon -- its a) a little too much for all recon, and b) not used by AI from what i've seen -- but it would be perfect polynesia uu ability if AI could use it

 

[azum4roll]

This is weaker than the current Maori Warrior, who is already the weakest UU.

 

[Yngwie]

About MUC: I just didn’t check MUC modmod cause only play with regular VP pack. If MUC already became an integral part of VP, probably it’s better to integrate it fully to main Mod? Guess, it will be clearer that way.

About scout replacement: I thought in that way. In the process I understood that I don’t like the idea of earning UU through random ancient ruins upgrade. Though, it could be solved by some rework of rewards from ruins. I will propose some changes to Ruins later and then will return to Maori. Though, I still believe that Polynesia needs a replacement exactly for Explorer Unit.

Ability of Winged Hussar: Well, it was an impulsive decision in order to compensate reduced CS, but it feels quite in place. Although your comments are justified – UU needs more uniqueness. I will change this part than, though need some time to research Maori culture.

Even Weaker Unit: In terms of CS – of course it is reduced to resemble CS of Explorer. However, it is proposed to make a Unit cheaper + it gains movement of Explorer and additional ability, so it’s kind of Balanced to previous Maori. Though I agree – compared to other UU it still far behind.

I will think it over and amend the proposal in short time

 

[Legen]

Well personally I don’t really like the idea of the Winged Hussar ability getting given to the Māori Warrior. I feel like it debases the uniqueness of both the units. Id prefer some more unique thing. At the same time tho I get it from a flavour point of view. I just don’t know. It’s more about the uniqueness debasement for me.

While I agree with the OP's rationale overall, I agree that the unit should avoid doing the same iconic feature of another UU.

 

[azum4roll]

Disclaimer: I dislike any recon UUs since AI always seems to have troubles with them.
Bandeirantes gets a pass because its kit is purely utility-based and non-combat.
Conquistador reluctantly gets a pass with a huge CS boost + OP promotions to keep it barely in line with Knights. They still obsolete (in combat usefulness) in late Renaissance, but at least so are Tercios. Spanish AI spamming Conquistadors in late Industrial while lacking the funds to upgrade them is still actively harming it.

Now onto this proposal, the purpose is to make it a combat scout, similar to Conquistador. So we can directly compare them.
Unlock tech: early Medieval vs late Medieval
CS: 18 vs 23
Free promotions: Haka War Dance (underpowered) + Heavy Charge (good, but requires high CS to work aka almost never with this unit) vs Overrun + Vanguard (both strong T4 promos)
Cost: 135 vs 160

I don't see how this is even worth training for combat use.

 

[Yngwie]

Disclaimer: I dislike any recon UUs since AI always seems to have troubles with them.
Bandeirantes gets a pass because its kit is purely utility-based and non-combat.
Conquistador reluctantly gets a pass with a huge CS boost + OP promotions to keep it barely in line with Knights. They still obsolete (in combat usefulness) in late Renaissance, but at least so are Tercios. Spanish AI spamming Conquistadors in late Industrial while lacking the funds to upgrade them is still actively harming it.

Now onto this proposal, the purpose is to make it a combat scout, similar to Conquistador. So we can directly compare them.
Unlock tech: early Medieval vs late Medieval
CS: 18 vs 23
Free promotions: Haka War Dance (underpowered) + Heavy Charge (good, but requires high CS to work aka almost never with this unit) vs Overrun + Vanguard (both strong T4 promos)
Cost: 135 vs 160

I don't see how this is even worth training for combat use.

What CS would be enough for these Unit to be strong enough to fight, but not unbalanced and exploitable? Same as now - 22CS seems a bit too much. Probably optimal is 20?

 

[ScarletArkyning]

Maybe even take a page out of Civ VI’s book and add in the Pā. Let Māori Warriors build the Pā, a fort improvement that let’s say gives a defence bonus and a heal bonus. I don’t exactly know the details, but that’s a thinkin point. Especially since the Miami defensive buff was removed last Congress, it could be reimplemented in a slightly more nuanced way through this.

 

[azum4roll]

Or we can just agree that the Shoshone/Polynesia proposal was a pure nerf for both civs and revert it.

Maori Warrior will still be weak, but maybe just a simple +1 CS will fix it.

 

[Stalker0]

One idea is to give the unit survival I and 2 to start. Part of the balancing act with the conquistador was finding a CS value tbst gave it enough punch while preventing it from being invincible if someone took survival II for 50% more defense.

Now if that was already included, you could balance around it

 

[pineappledan]

That's the other thing I don't like about this proposal: We already have 2 unique Explorers.

If it was brought forward as a unique Scout it would be more useful to Polynesia's expansion phase and be more unique, because we don't have a Scout UU in base VP.
The ability to upgrade into a MW from ruins is, in my view, a feature, not a bug. We had various spear UUs that could be upgraded into directly by warriors for a long, long time in VP, and it was never a problem or reason to remove free upgrades before. Why should it be a problem for Scouts? You're specifically giving this ability to the civ that has access to the most ruins of any civ, because of how he can immediately scout off his starting landmass. Why not lean into that instead of problematizing it?

Maori Warrior (Scout)

Unlocks at Sailing​

90​

13CS (+3)​

No Movement Penalties​

Treasure Hunter​

Amphibious​

Haka War Dance (-15% CS to adjacent enemy units)​

Perhaps I write a counterproposal?

 

[Tekamthi]

Yeah the Koa model is solid and playtested -- that should be the move for the uu, and then muc can figure out a new unit.

I think we solve the underwhelming aspect of having recon uu by improving Polynesia UA, something to better compensate for the bit they lost to shoshone

 

[Stalker0]

That's the other thing I don't like about this proposal: We already have 2 unique Explorers.

If it was brought forward as a unique Scout it would be more useful to Polynesia's expansion phase and be more unique, because we don't have a Scout UU in base VP.
The ability to upgrade into a MW from ruins is, in my view, a feature, not a bug. We had various spear UUs that could be upgraded into directly by warriors for a long, long time in VP, and it was never a problem or reason to remove free upgrades before. Why should it be a problem for Scouts? You're specifically giving this ability to the civ that has access to the most ruins of any civ, because of how he can immediately scout off his starting landmass. Why not lean into that instead of problematizing it?

Maori Warrior (Scout)

Unlocks at Sailing​

90​

13CS (+3)​

No Movement Penalties​

Treasure Hunter​

Amphibious​

Haka War Dance (-15% CS to adjacent enemy units)​

Perhaps I write a counterproposal?

curious would an amphibious unit with hakka provide the penalty to naval ships, or would it still only work for land units?