[Complex] (7-NS) Polynesia UA and Carthage UA+UB rework

[Yngwie]

Problems:
1) Both Civs underperform in AI tests. (Especially Polynesia, but Carthage too dependent on map)
2) Carthage and Polynesia are different but have one thing in common – they have ability to use water tiles earlier than ordinary Civs. While it could be justified for Polynesia, it’s really weird for Carthage. So it is proposed to rework Carthage UA and UB and slightly change the Polynesian UA
3) The basic intention was to take Lighthouse from Carthage and provide it to Polynesia. They deserve City connections over water.

Polynesia UA’s and Rationale

Spoiler :

Current Polynesia UA

• +2 Sight when Embarked, can always Embark and move Oceans
• +2 Food from Fishing boats and atolls.
• Melee and Gunpowder Units can construct fishing Boats.
• No unhappiness from isolation.

Proposed Polynesia UA

• +2 Sight when Embarked, can always Embark and move Oceans
• +2 Food from Fishing boats and atolls.
• Free Lighthouse in Coastal Cities
• No unhappiness from isolation.

Rationale: This is pure Coastal Civ and it can settle tons of Cities in Coast regardless map limitation. What was the problem for Carthage (lack of place near water to settle, ocean etc.) is not a problem for Polynesia – they could sail away in any direction in any moment. So, that’s why Free Lighthouse will perform better in Polynesian UA

Carthage:
Current UA+UB

Spoiler :

Current Carthage UA

• +125 gold when founding Cities, scaling with era
• Free Lighthouse in Coastal Cities
• Trade Route resource diversity modifier doubled

Current Carthage UB (Great Cothon):

• +1 to both from TR;
• +2 Bonus Cargo Slots,
• Harbors +3 prod,
• Lighthouses +2 culture,
• -2 poverty in this city

Proposed UA+UB

Spoiler :

Proposed Carthage UA:

• Target Cities of your Trade Routes provide copies of their Resources to your Trade Network.
• Luxury resources provide +1 Production when worked by City.
• Trade Route resource diversity modifier doubled

Proposed Carthage UB (Great Cothon):

• +5 Defense
• +1 to both from TR
• +2 Bonus Cargo Slots
• +2 Culture from Markets
• +1% yields in this City for every Strategic Resource connected to your Trade Network
• +3% Yields in this City for every Luxury Resource connected to your Trade Network

Rationale and Comments

Spoiler :

Rationale: Current Carthage UA feels boring because of Gold and Lighthouse part. The Gold bonus means a free Unit to buy and a free building which only force you to settle near Water. The same for UB – it mainly affect Coastal Cities and not so interesting (except earlier unlock). With reworked UA + UB we gain a powerful Trade Civilization which no longer suffer from imbalance between Coastal and Landlocked Cities

UA comments:

• Carthagians were excellent Traders, but we already have few Civs that gain yields from TR (Marocco, Ottomans, Portugal), so it is proposed to let Carthage gain recourses from Trade (However reworked UB will convert them)
• Prod from Luxury – it’s needed to compensate lost Prod from Harbors and Prod for Lighthouse.

UB Comments

• +5 Defense – Great Cothon was a military building, which effectively protected Carthage from the Sea
• +2 Culture from Markets: more Universal than same from Lighthouse
• % Yields from Resources: nicely complement copies from new UA and emphasize the historical nature of Carthage - one Great city and many less developed satellites. More than that, this part suits for trade and domination game - both related to Carthage. When it comes to yields - it scaling with number or recourses and basic yields of a City. According to paper calculation the total yields quite resemble the same of Portugal, Ottomans and Marocco.

MAGI: Complex proposal, DLL and database changes

 

[hokath]

Changing Carthage to a totally different style is probably not going to get widespread support. I get where you're coming from on the "one Great city and many less developed satellites" though.
However for multiple reasons I think the first draft of this one's dead in the water

The Polynesian UA is specifically because they didn't do lighthouses and such, right? That's how I interpret that. Sure it would be a buff if they got a free Lighthouse. Just not sure it makes sense?

But more significantly,

• +1% yields in this City for every Strategic Resource connected to your Trade Network
• +3% Yields in this City for every Luxury Resource connected to your Trade Network

This bonus seems totally insane.
I assume you mean every resource in a city you target with a trade route, as per the UA? Or is this all the resources you have access to? Either way, if you get a few targets with 2 different lux then fairly early this could be 20% or 30%. The Tradition finisher is much lower than that! In the late game it could go completely crazy.

 

[Tekamthi]

the free lighthouse for polynesia is somewhat thematically jarring, isn't it? were they know for using navigational aides of this style?

a round or two ago we removed a special ability of their UI -- i'd say we should give them something back that connects to it once again. An improvement can assign promotions fairly capably -- say their UI confers a promotion to any unit passing over it that confers some naval/coastal-related bonus -- promotion is temporary, falls off after a few turns but can be readded by reentering the UI plot.

 

[pineappledan]

You could argue the free lighthouse, an aide for navigation near shores, is culturally innate to their practice of wayfinding. ie. they get a free lighthouse because their culturally practiced method of navigation explodes the need to construct lighthouses.

I like the idea of giving the free Lighthouse bonus to Polynesia, actually. I also agree that with the switch from free harbours -- the vanilla free building -- the Carthage UA is kinda turns the historicity of the original UA into nonsense. The original UA was based on how the Phoenicians surveyed coastline and settled new cities based on the suitability of their natural harbours, using innovative techniques to check the depth, etc.

Arguably, Polynesia's current bonuses are badly recreating the free lighthouse already. lighthouse gives immediate connection, and thus isolation removal. Lighthouses also boost fish. With a Free lighthouse in all Polynesian cities you can remove both of those redundant bonuses:

Wayfinding

• +2 Sight when Embarked, all units can Embark and enter Deep Ocean immediately.
• Free Lighthouse in Coastal Cities.
• Melee and Gunpowder Units can construct fishing Boats.
• +2 from Atolls.

The specific Carthage bonuses OP suggested… I’m not loving them, but I would need to think on it more.

 

[Legen]

I'm against removing the water theme from Carthage. The Phoenicians weren't famous only for their merchants, they were also renowned for extraordinary seamanship and shipbuilding; it was to such an extend that nobles from other empires would only sail on a ship if it were made by Phoenicians, and/or helmed by one.

 

[Yngwie]

Lighthouse was chosen in the last moment, for a long time i thought to propose them only: "- water tiles can establish city connection" instead, but finally Lighthouse won, cause it's simplier

Isolation bonus is great when it comes to Blockade of your City, therefore it's not removed

About Phoenecian seamanship - of course they were great. What confuse me in game - why they can benefit from lighthouses before they can even sail? That's the main problem. If they were able to embark at least on coastal tiles right from the start - it would make sense. But they don't have such ability. And there is no way to add this to Carthage - just because we have Denmark, Netherlands, Venice and other "water" Civs. Carthage not so unique compared to them.

About % bonus - yes, it's huge. I already wrote that it provides almost the same yields as Marocco, Ottomans and Portugal UA, just moved to UB. Suppose, it's a nice compensation for current instant benefits of Carthage

 

[hokath]

Isolation bonus is great when it comes to Blockade of your City, therefore it's not removed

That's a cool little detail, I wasn't aware it worked that way.

it provides almost the same yields as Marocco, Ottomans and Portugal UA, just moved to UB. Suppose, it's a nice compensation for current instant benefits of Carthage

Yes I suppose when I look again, the UA gives very little yields directly. Perhaps this will be fine. You will have no choice but to go Tradition, but there are a few civs that are like that.

The +1 prod from luxuries is ok I suppose.
Another idea might be +100% production to Harbors (and Lighthouses, Seaports?) to give that water theme and help out your weak little secondary cities.

 

[Yngwie]

Another idea might be +100% production to Harbors (and Lighthouses, Seaports?) to give that water theme and help out your weak little secondary cities.

Construction bonus to naval buildings sounds great and there is no logical conflict. If i got it correct, it could be used instead +1 Prod on Luxury?

 

[hokath]

Yes, instead I think.

 

[Legen]

Rationale: Current Carthage UA feels boring because of Gold and Lighthouse part. The Gold bonus means a free Unit to buy and a free building which only force you to settle near Water. The same for UB – it mainly affect Coastal Cities and not so interesting (except earlier unlock). With reworked UA + UB we gain a powerful Trade Civilization which no longer suffer from imbalance between Coastal and Landlocked Cities

About Phoenecian seamanship - of course they were great. What confuse me in game - why they can benefit from lighthouses before they can even sail? That's the main problem. If they were able to embark at least on coastal tiles right from the start - it would make sense. But they don't have such ability. And there is no way to add this to Carthage - just because we have Denmark, Netherlands, Venice and other "water" Civs. Carthage not so unique compared to them.

Carthage was known to focus on establishing oversea colonies around the Mediterranean coast to expand their trade network, and rarely expanded inland, or even on lands around Carthage itself. An imbalance between coastal and inland cities is historical, as well as the current appetite for quickly settling new cities along the coast.

Also, other water civs are not known to be as eager as Carthage to quickly settle new cities, especially Netherlands and Venice. Carthage is tailored around getting big immediate benefits from settling that other civs can't match, it is the fastest and most explosive of the gold/water civs.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Giving free lighthouses to polynesia feels like giving free workshops to the iroqouis, they would at least need to be a UB that is more primitive or something. It is very bad flavor unless im mistaken and they actually built lighthouses early in their history.

 

[Rekk]

Giving a civilization a free lighthouse suggests that lighthouses were integral to the civilization, not that they didn't rely on lighthouses at all. It's a weird mechanical implementation that sticks out on the UA line when a player is browsing civilizations.

Polynesia's current abilities give the majority of the usefulness of the lighthouse, the UA yields stack with the lighthouse, and allows some interesting settling decisions for human players without punishing AI players (with the capacity for the AI to be improved in the long term).

 

[SerbianYugoThief]

Giving a civilization a free lighthouse suggests that lighthouses were integral to the civilization, not that they didn't rely on lighthouses at all. It's a weird mechanical implementation that sticks out on the UA line when a player is browsing civilizations.

Polynesia's current abilities give the majority of the usefulness of the lighthouse, the UA yields stack with the lighthouse, and allows some interesting settling decisions for human players without punishing AI players (with the capacity for the AI to be improved in the long term).

I still prefer PD's argument that they're not literally getting a lighthouse, and their navigational ability simply makes up for it. The lighthouse is "free" in the sense that it doesn't exist, it's a cultural practice and thus requires no upkeep.

I'll also note I'm also really fond of the shared resources idea being representative of Phoenician trade hubs.

 

[pineappledan]

• +1% yields in this City for every Strategic Resource connected to your Trade Network
• +3% Yields in this City for every Luxury Resource connected to your Trade Network

For clarification, is this All Yields, as in ?
And is that each strategic resource tile, or for each copy of that resource connected? so is a horse tile with 2 horses worth +2% on empire?
That includes resources imported from city-states and SRs purchased from other civs?

My initial assessment is that this effect is probably an order of magnitude stronger than the German Hanse, and it comes out a full era earlier.

 

[Yngwie]

For clarification, is this All Yields, as in ?
And is that each strategic resource tile, or for each copy of that resource connected? so is a horse tile with 2 horses worth +2% on empire?
That includes resources imported from city-states and SRs purchased from other civs?

My initial assessment is that this effect is probably an order of magnitude stronger than the German Hanse, and it comes out a full era earlier.

Yep, it's all yields. 2 horses = +2% in this City. Imported resources also count,
Effect should be stronger than Hanse to compensate proposed UA. (German's UA and UB are both strong enough)

 

[Rekk]

+100% or more to yields in the capital city in the mid- to late game seems way too much.

Target Cities of your Trade Routes provide copies of their Resources to your Trade Network

This is way stronger than both Netherlands' and Portugal's versions. You've just proposed that Carthage eventually gains the supermajority of every civilization's resources at no extra cost.

 

[Tekamthi]

This really seems like nerf to Polynesia to me -- not just nerf but BIG nerf. All the hammers you save with the free lighthouse are gonna be spent building workboats, and then some.

Poly is in my shortlist of regular rotation. My last full game I had ten or so island cities, between which probably 40-ish fishing boats, maybe more. All of those fishing boats were built by the city garrison. Instead I'm gonna get 10 free lighthouses and have to build 40+ workboats? I don't think I come out ahead on this.

The poly proposals need to be unbundled or we risk breaking a civ this round imo. I don't think the polynesia proposal here will pass on its own but maybe the merits of all these bundled deals might result in some bad compromises being made

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.