[Complex] (7-NS) recon xp functionality extension

[Tekamthi]

I was hesitant to do any recon proposals this round, as I am aware we are all burnt out on the topic of the units and their promos -- but this is significantly different, and the Congress proposal phase is a good time for discussion. This is a non-conflicting counter proposal to 7-45.

I sense this will not get sponsored, but I nonetheless find it a good solution to one of the complaints about our recon, and I anticipate the concept itself will be less controversial than other recon proposals: some say the recon xp leads to an undesirable opportunity cost with their starting warrior; on the one hand, there's a race on to find the starting goody huts, on the other, any land discovered by the warrior is xp lost for recon.

With a mechanism to recoup that discovery xp that was not earned by recon, this loss does not feel as bad. A well-aligned xp recoup mechanism can additionally enhance the "exploration" role of recon, as proposed here. It can also reduce the disparity between the occurrence of the occasional early-built "super scout " vs much more mundane variety built later on.

This proposal is essentially integrating exploration heritage v46 modmod, and sponsorship would be contingent on one of our more advanced devs to be willing to reproduce its lua within the mod. I've tested this in game, have trialed several different models, and refined to one that works well and feels natural. It's possible that a conflicting counter proposal might actually have an even better idea -- if nothing else I'd hope this encourages a few more ideas we haven't heard before about recon, while the proposal/theorycrafting phase remains open. If this were implemented, we eliminate one of the multiple complaints about recon, and who knows, maybe this frees up the logjam on the others.

Proposal:

• University grants 'Exploration Heritage' promotion to recon built in city
• Every turn, EH-promo'd recon units (pre-paratrooper) with full HP are granted 50% of their distance to capital as XP
• recon XP pool must be > 0
• recon XP pool = (current recon xp formula applied to ALL plots revealed by player, not just those revealed by recon) - (the sum of all XP carried by their active recon units)
• EH promotion removed from paratrooper and above; no bonus XP after commando

Can test drive a slight variation of this at https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/exploration-heritage.662115/

 

[rkkn]

so, all recon units share a pile of xp that grows as you explore, and dying puts the xp back in the pile?

 

[Tekamthi]

Exactly -- that is the core concept that makes recon xp better. Above you have my best implementation of that core concept, but perhaps the parameters are off. If we could get that core into VP, I am confident we'd be better off on multiple fronts

 

[rkkn]

parameters are definitely off. 1 xp per tile is like 5x as much xp as current

 

[Tekamthi]

parameters are definitely off. 1 xp per tile is like 5x as much xp as current

Was just easier to count 1:1 as I was setting things up and narrowing in on a good xp distribution mechanism; that is the other important part here -- xp as a function of distance to capital: this encourages recon to be sent back out in the distant parts of the world even after plots are revealed ie. "re-exploring"

Balancing the pool value would probably be the next revision, if I make one -- but keep in mind that the xp pool only counts LAND plots as proposed, whereas recon xp counts all plots; there is some balancing restriction here, some maps more than others; just maybe needs refinement. My best thought for additional restriction is to count only inland plots, but this might still be quite large on some maps

 

[ma_kuh]

When I think about recon XP changes my first thought goes to consolidating XP gains into discovery triggers, instead of fractions of XP for every tile revealed.

So things like Uncovered Ancient Ruins; Revealed a New Civ (including CS); Discovered a Natural Wonder; Circumnavigated the Globe; etc.

How those triggers play into XP would be something to iron out. For instance, what I like about all Ancient Ruins providing XP to recon is that it means that looting maps first doesn't snowball as hard into more ruins (less luck involved if you're guaranteed a promo after any first ruin regardless of roll). Also it doesn't mandate recon pick up ruins, so you can still grab it with a warrior if you need to, there's just a strong incentive to grab it with recon if you can.

The civ/wonder reveals factoring into XP would be trickier. I'd be inclined to try something where these kinds of triggers add to a global floor for recon, both past and future. Similar to Exploration Heritage. Something like: When you meet a new civ, all current recon gain 2xp, and future recon units start with 2xp for each revealed civ. This naturally scales with map size as well because the total number of meetings will scale. You might remove the Barracks line XP from recon at that point, especially if you factor in 2xp per Natural Wonder as well, but that's getting into details before even seeing if the idea is fun.

 

[Tekamthi]

Love that idea. EH was purposefully simplified a year or two ago, just to focus on the important mechanism of redistributing lost recon xp. Rather than one time enable, earlier had it occurring more gradually, though generally always used the per land tile basis.

Per tile is valuable because it actually gives value to the player going out and revealing EVERY tile -- per LAND tile adds some slight value to discovering even those bare far off islands, mimicking what maritime explorers would typically search for -- but there could be other mechanisms in the mix. My take would be to have those other discoveries etc work to affect the % of the distance to capital received as xp. Maybe base it gets 20% the distance and as player accomplishes those other achievements, % increases. I prefer the "drip" pacing of small amount per turn over big bucket instalments (tried this previously).

As far as proposal goes, cuz I have working model and changing it takes time and effort, I will not make amendments here, but I do encourage any to counter with changes big or small. We need to lure in a sponsor somehow with the perfect idea...

 

[azum4roll]

I don't know why there has to be two different recon XP calculations (from recon promotion, and from discovered land plots). The recon promotion isn't random, so you can just as easily equate the pool capacity with the recon promotion XP.

 

[Tekamthi]

I don't know why there has to be two different recon XP calculations (from recon promotion, and from discovered land plots). The recon promotion isn't random, so you can just as easily equate the pool capacity with the recon promotion XP.

per LAND tile adds some slight value to discovering even those bare far off islands, mimicking what maritime explorers would typically search for

Just a design choice -- land creates more interesting exploration dynamic than an all tiles model.

I think it's harder to keep track of the recon xp itself; when unit is killed can I still get it's xp to start making deductions? This is where I turned to a straight plot count, but there may be more clever ways. We're only seeing vague ideas posted though, and I think recon xp is an acknowledged problem to many. Would be nice to see some parallel solutions

 

[azum4roll]

I think it's harder to keep track of the recon xp itself

It only requires one more integer memory value per player.

 

[Tekamthi]

only requires one more integer memory value per player.

Perhaps within DLL, yes. But from the lua side I am not aware of any hook to leverage to count the xp as its earned, other than a loop through all units counting each's xp, but I can't distinguish between combat and recon xp this way so there ends up being over counting on both sides in the proposed model (nonetheless the pool size has the advantage) -- doing this as a modmod required approximation, and I prefer to have working model for these unusual proposals, where possible.

But let's consider this alternate xp counting approximation as well for second; is it bad gameplay if the xp pool is not a 1:1 for count of recon xp? Consider that this may only be a perceived mathematical issue but not actually a gameplay problem: In the case proposed, where the pool approximation is larger than recon xp itself, achieving university turns on at least a few turns of the bonus xp even if starting Pathfinder was never lost -- it this feels like an achievement to all who reach this enabling threshold, rather then only those who mis played their recon -- and it still keeps things reasonably limited at the same time

 

[azum4roll]

But let's consider this alternate xp counting approximation as well for second; is it bad gameplay if the xp pool is not a 1:1 for count of recon xp? Consider that this may only be a perceived mathematical issue but not actually a gameplay problem: In the case proposed, where the pool approximation is larger than recon xp itself, achieving university turns on at least a few turns of the bonus xp even if starting Pathfinder was never lost -- it this feels like an achievement to all who reach this enabling threshold, rather then only those who mis played their recon -- and it still keeps things reasonably limited at the same time

A player would expect the pool size to be equal to the recon XP ever gained. As a proposal, DLL code change isn't off the table

 

[rkkn]

I strongly disagree with having it grant xp only for land tiles. This makes discovering a chain of small islands exceedingly useless in terms of xp. Give reduced value to water tiles rather than zero.

 

[Tekamthi]

Okay will give it a few days to develop discussion a little further, but will amend based on feedback -- all of these details suggested are 100% valid -- my rationale for selecting these particulars is purely about getting something working and playable outside of congress, how I arrived at it etc.

One point is emerging as perhaps a source of disagreement: some of the posts above suggest we'd want to make the pool about recon xp actually earned, rather than a function of tiles revealed -- to clarify I would still intend for this to use tiles revealed rather than counting only the recon xp, to recoup xp lost to non-recon exploration etc.

Please also consider whether the other details here are desirable -- ie it's all enabled via a promotion conferred at university -- I prefer gating these things as it adds to the sense of progression in the game -- but is it appropriately gated to everyone's tastes? Or does the ideal proposal have no gating at all? The core concept here is all that really matters to me, let's get all details aligned to our collective view of a best fit for this recon xp pool concept...

 

[Tekamthi]

Updated proposal to incorporate feedback -- xp pool as function of all plots revealed, as per current recon xp formula

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.