(7-VT) Archery Units rework pt.1 "Units count as obstacles."

[Yngwie]

Problem: Mid and late game battles lose some of their micro-management part due to overpromoted Units. Adding some restriction to ordinary ranged Units will create mini-game about better positioning and separate siege and archery Units even more.

Proposal: Add new ability to Musketman / Gatling gun / Machine gun / Bazooka - “Can’t attack through Units” (Units count as obstacles). So, to fully use their range, these Units will have to climb hills or avoid staying behind other Units in flat tiles

Rationale: Musketman / Gatling gun / Machine gun / Bazooka use bullets(rockets) which fly almost in a straight line. Therefore they should not have access to parabolic trajectory like Units with bows and crossbows. Limitation is needed. It will not reduce the role of Ranged Units, cause they are still a first option to protect against enemy Units.

 

[azum4roll]

Nerfing a unit class on upgrade is a no-go. Do you want Crossbows to be never upgraded like in vanilla?

 

[Yngwie]

Nerfing a unit class on upgrade is a no-go. Do you want Crossbows to be never upgraded like in vanilla?

This line is already have some nerfs due to, for example, Covering fire 1. And frankly speaking, I don't use archery Units after crossbows because of this promo. So, the problem already exists. However, the covering fire provide some game changing effect and it could be interesting but definetely should be reworked

 

[N.Core]

I'm not sure teaching the AI for this change would be an easy task.
Also, adding more complications to the war gameplay is a no-go for me.

 

[Stalker0]

@axatin @Recursive. Summoning the Magi. My initial reaction is that the archer change would be such a fundamental change to the unit class that this would require a supermajority vote, wanted to get your take.

 

[Tekamthi]

Musketman / Gatling gun / Machine gun / Bazooka use bullets(rockets) which fly almost in a straight line. Therefore they should not have access to parabolic trajectory like Units with bows and crossbows.

I interpret this differently: given that 10-20 years is often elapsing per turn, the units are not necessarily firing over the heads of the other unit but maneuvering within the region to engage the enemy.

Nonetheless the concern probably still stands in such an interpretation -- I'd rather see this is a special attribute of a certain unit type rather universally applied to all -- or maybe it's an attribute of fortification ie a fortified unit prevents enemy from firing beyond

 

[Rekk]

In the general use-case, crossbows weren't loosed in parabolic arcs either.

 

[Tekamthi]

Will my own units also block ranged units from firing over them? If the logic is applied consistently, they should, but this will greatly reduce the utility of the archer line I think

edit: possible compromise here is to have units block vision, but not firing -- ie archer on its own cant see through an enemy unit, and thus can't fire, but with support it could

 

[Yngwie]

So, i see that it's really controversial and have no chance to pass, but anyway - maybe someone else will propose alternatives.

I suppose, Takamthi's one is interesting in terms of Defense

 

[N.Core]

Nerfing Naval Ranged by only being able to attack land units on coast tiles already makes them almost useless and makes people prefer Naval Melees to them. Adding this one definitely will make Archer units' gameplay worse and make people prefer Siege or Skirmisher units for ranged attacks.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal vetoed.

Reason: Out of scope & AI incompatible. Implementation is very complicated and incompatible with the existing tactical AI, so unless you have another ilteroi willing to write a lot of custom code that would need to be enabled modularly, I don't see this happening. I also agree with azum4roll's concern regarding it being a better strategy not to upgrade Crossbowmen.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.