(8-03a) 4UC Assyria With No-Faith Lamassu

[hokath]

(8-03) 4UC Assyria: Iron Chariot Rework and Lamassu Gate Tweaks

Links: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-03-4uc-assyria.690000/ UU2 - Iron Chariot (Mounted Melee, unique UnitClass, upgrades to Knight) Unlocks at Bronze Working 100 :c5production: 200 :c5faith:(same as Swordsman) Requires 1 Horse and 1 Iron 17 :c5strength: 4 :c5moves: No Defensive...

forums.civfanatics.com

We keep the nice (and I suspect quite terrifying!) Azum Chariot.

New Unit - Iron Chariot (Mounted Melee, unique UnitClass, upgrades to Knight)
Unlocks at Bronze Working
100 200 (same as Swordsman)
Requires 1 Horse and 1 Iron
17
4
No Defensive Terrain Bonuses
Can Move After Attacking
City Attack Penalty
Beam Axle (Entering Forest, Jungle, Marsh, and Hill costs +1 Movement (does not stack). Lost on Upgrade.)
Shock Cavalry (+20% Combat Strength when attacking into or defending in Open Terrain.)

However the new building I would change.
All else being equal, an early Faith bonus guarantees you Found a religion. We have to be careful about this with new components, because you could end up with a situation when a "religious civ" cannot Found a Religion. Furthermore, the warmongers are the Civs that have the least pressure to Found, because they can take a Religion from their first victim.
Still, Lamassu are iconic and have a religious connection, so we should try to preserve the flavor. I've opted for a later bonus with a small boost to the Palace for that OCC early-aggression/rush type of game plan that you really need with Assyria to trigger the UA asap.
Finally, I find the messing with city strength and ranged combat, etc., strange and hard to interpret. The effect of the statue on the perception of strength should be more indirect, for me.

New Building - Lamassu Gate (replaces Walls)
Unlocked at Construction
110 , 1 Gold Maintenance
+6
+125 HP
+1 Strike Range
-5% Empire Size Modifier for Unhappiness from Needs
+10% Military Supply from Population (+5% if supply rework passes)
+2 Culture to Palaces and Temples in the City
Units produced in this City gain the "Zodiac Blessing" Promotion

Zodiac Blessing -- +1 Food, Production, and Culture when Stationed in a City and +15% Combat Strength if nearby a Friendly City.

I'm suggesting this icon from the extra promotions atlas.

But perhaps @gwennog has a better idea

Note: Initially I had the promotion with strength when garrisoned, there is a UnitPromotion column called CityDefense, but if it works it doesn't appear on the unit pane. I suspect looking at the .cpp files that it might require an attack to hit the unit directly, so... rocket missiles? Anyway no new DLL allowed! But I will put a ticket in to check on this when we have time.

 

[gwennog]

But perhaps @gwennog has a better idea

or simpler but certainly more readable in small.

 

[pineappledan]

I think this is too strong for an ancient building. Let's take stock:

Zodiac Blessing -- +1 Food, Production, and Culture when Stationed in a City and +15% Combat Strength if nearby a Friendly City.

This is +3 extra yields with a garrison granted it comes with a condition, but it's still a lot early on.

+2 Culture to Palaces and Temples in the City

This is a combined 5 yields in the capital immediately, +3 per turn on an ancient building
I'm not in favour of augmenting a building that unlocks 2 techs later. I beseech you to change this to a bonus to shrines.

Overall I would recommend +1 to garrison and +1 to palace/shrine That doesn't require a full era to come online and controls the yields better.

 

[KlHannibal2]

As Assyria, with two early UUs, I want my units on the attack, not as garrisons.

 

[hokath]

Yes I considered these points, here is my reasoning:

• I budget for an ancient UB something like +2 flat yields +an extra effect. Fair? Walls of Babylon is actually +3 ! Since this has no flat yields, but instead yield with a condition, I bumped it +3.
• +2 on the Palace is not so crazy. In comparison to our favourite, the Tophet, this is coming online much later and will result in fewer yields. +1 would be too small.
• Unique Walls is already a bit of a hard sell when you really want to beeline Writing for the UNW. I have tended to ignore the Lamassu gate until the Classical. At least this way, with some actually desirable-looking economic power, one is presented with some choice. In fact it may be a good idea to move a small amount of power across, even.
• By putting the yields on the Temple we push back the bonuses of Assyria in time. It is not desirable, for me, to have everything in the first 3 tech rows. However a unique temple is done to death (and we are avoiding faith bonuses). This is a happy middle ground.

I would consider perhaps dropping the Palace bonus but increasing the Temple bonus to +3 . Thoughts?

and @KlHannibal2

• The bonus requiring a garrison when you wish to attack is intentional. There is a tension of course but this is what presents you with alternative and unique gameplay choices. Perhaps you produce more units than you otherwise would have. Or you leave a man behind. Maybe you don't and just lose the bonus for some time. Overall it would be far easier to just make every bonus on every civ funnel to one goal, but I think it's fair to say Assyria has enough of that. Moreover, remember that in the base proposal the bonuses are to city attack! When is that likely to come up? When you take a city, it comes out of resistance, and then eventually builds walls, and some time later gets attacked? Here you get your defensive bonus immediately after capturing the city.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Yes I considered these points, here is my reasoning:

• I budget for an ancient UB something like +2 flat yields +an extra effect. Fair? Walls of Babylon is actually +3 ! Since this has no flat yields, but instead yield with a condition, I bumped it +3.
• +2 on the Palace is not so crazy. In comparison to our favourite, the Tophet, this is coming online much later and will result in fewer yields. +1 would be too small.
• Unique Walls is already a bit of a hard sell when you really want to beeline Writing for the UNW. I have tended to ignore the Lamassu gate until the Classical. At least this way, with some actually desirable-looking economic power, one is presented with some choice. In fact it may be a good idea to move a small amount of power across, even.
• By putting the yields on the Temple we push back the bonuses of Assyria in time. It is not desirable, for me, to have everything in the first 3 tech rows. However a unique temple is done to death (and we are avoiding faith bonuses). This is a happy middle ground.

I would consider perhaps dropping the Palace bonus but increasing the Temple bonus to +3 . Thoughts?

and @KlHannibal2

• The bonus requiring a garrison when you wish to attack is intentional. There is a tension of course but this is what presents you with alternative and unique gameplay choices. Perhaps you produce more units than you otherwise would have. Or you leave a man behind. Maybe you don't and just lose the bonus for some time. Overall it would be far easier to just make every bonus on every civ funnel to one goal, but I think it's fair to say Assyria has enough of that. Moreover, remember that in the base proposal the bonuses are to city attack! When is that likely to come up? When you take a city, it comes out of resistance, and then eventually builds walls, and some time later gets attacked? Here you get your defensive bonus immediately after capturing the city.

Thinking of it again, I can see a strat emerging. You could build the lamassu gate in the capital only, and spam cheap warriors or slingers as garrisons. You only need the IB in the capital for that.

You can wait with building it in other cities until you have temples. Pretty unique concept.

 

[azum4roll]

All else being equal, an early Faith bonus guarantees you Found a religion.

It doesn't! Generally you need +2 to guarantee one. Light religious edge as a flavor should be allowed.

 

[hokath]

I've tried to offer an alternative to religious flavor that isn't +, this is basically the mission statement of this counterproposal.
If you want faith, vote for the other one.

It's a hard one because, yes clearly Assyria had important religious stuff going on.
So did pretty much every civilization!
For gameplay reasons we need to choose which ones should get faith on the components. At least, faith during the ancient era.
For me the role of early religious warmonger is best left to the Aztec.

It doesn't! Generally you need +2 to guarantee one. Light religious edge as a flavor should be allowed.

Then all else is not equal. But I take your point that +1 is marginal compared to the fluctuations between pantheons etc.

I admit this verges on the ideological, going after this specifically because of the faith, but I think on balance
a) I prefer the cleaner separation of designs
b) The UB in the original proposal does not spark joy

 

[pineappledan]

It doesn't! Generally you need +2 to guarantee one. Light religious edge as a flavor should be allowed.

Then all else is not equal. But I take your point that +1 is marginal compared to the fluctuations between pantheons etc.

But it’s not just +1 faith, it’s +1 faith AND an instant faith mechanic.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.