(8-04) 4UC Austria

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Austrian civilization.

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Grenzer (replaces Fusilier):

Available at Rifling​

625 Production cost​

35 CS​

2 Movement​

"Field Works"​

"Home Guard" (+25% CS in Friendly Territory)​

"Grenzer" (+1 CS per Diplomatic Marriage on Empire (CS adjustment on level up))​

UB - Schützenstand (replaces Arsenal - Gunsmith in EE):

Available at Military Science​

1500 Production Cost​

5 Gold Maintenance​

Does not requires a Castle​

+1 City Attack Range​

Heals Garrisons by 5 HP, regardless of action​

+3 Production and +3 Culture​

+1 Production and +1 Culture for each allied CS​

+15% Production towards Land Military Units and +30% to Gunpowder Units​

+15 XP to Gunpowder Units on Training​

+12 City Defense​

+300 City HP​

+25% Military Supply Cap from Population​

-5% empire needs modifier​

 

[pineappledan]

reserved

 

[azum4roll]

The image is a thumbnail instead of a full version.

(CS adjustment on level up)

I guess this is only because there isn't a hook on marriage?

 

[pineappledan]

I guess this is only because there isn't a hook on marriage

Precisely

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I think we should make Grenzer a Rifleman replacement, we don't have any of those, and Rifleman comes at Replaceable Parts, which has Wire Service.

 

[Stalker0]

the Grenzer seems like a cool unit.

On the UB, my only thought it....right now austria has this monstrous diplomatic power which is somewhat balanced by her weak military. She invests a lot of gold into marraiges and so has to be careful about losing militarily. Its part of her play. I worry this building corrects that weakness too much, giving her a military power rather than a weakness as part of her kit.

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: D+
Another case of a badly overcentralized kit damaging any potential design space for more UCs. Austria's marriage mechanic is just too powerful on its own; any new components have nothing to do except get out of its way. Augmenting it further would just make an already OP civ even more unbalanced, so the only thing to do is give some tangential bonuses that would be useful for some other victory path that you're never going to take, because Austria is just way too overoptimized for the Cultural/Diplomatic victory path.

Austria - Grenzer
Theme - B. Knowing relatively little about Austria, but given it is one of the least militaristic civs in the game currently, this allowed for a fairly blank slate upon which to choose a new UC. The Grenzer appeared, to my eyes, to be the most relevant and interesting unique unit choice available for Austria, showcasing the constant border conflicts against the encroaching Ottomans and how that shaped Austrian military organization and institutions for centuries later.
Mechanics - F. Overall I would say I am unhappy with how this unit turned out. I think the concept is interesting, but scaling flat CS is not a great bonus that is both hard to tune and hard to convey. I'm left at a loss as to what would make the Grenzer reflect its unique place in history while also feeling like a fun and unique addition to Austria's existing kit.
Uniqueness - C. It scales its base CS off the marriage mechanic, which is unique enough, but I don't know if it really feels like a Grenzer. Fusilier UUs are fairly easy to come up with, and it feels a bit like this unit is squatting on a coveted unit slot that a more interesting UU could occupy right now. It also is stacked closely with the unique Hussar, giving an oddly large power spike for a non-military civ.

Austria - Standschutzen
Theme - D. Knowing relatively little about Austrian history myself, I'm not sure if what we came up with here is particularly emblematic of Autstria. It served more for the realities of the mod, and the choice was dominated more by what we needed to avoid than what we wanted to portray. Still, the UB portrays something of Tyrolean, Alpine Austrian history and culture which is neat, since the UA and UB are very focused on Vienna, and the two UUs are from the Eastern march.
Mechanics - D. It's a CS ally scaler and some military unit production. None of this really helps Austria with their victory pursuit, but Austria is so overpowered it didn't feel right to give them anything that is actually helpful.
Uniqueness - B. It is an arsenal replacement, which is totally unique and far removed from the Austria's other renaissance components.

 

[dostillevi]

I don't have a whole lot to add other than I agree that Austria has never felt like a fun civ to play or play against.

Maybe we could do something with the new spy mechanics? Perhaps add the ability to assassinate Habsburg royalty in a CS and thus remove the marriage benefit?

 

[Stalker0]

the Grenzer seems like a cool unit.

On the UB, my only thought it....right now austria has this monstrous diplomatic power which is somewhat balanced by her weak military. She invests a lot of gold into marraiges and so has to be careful about losing militarily. Its part of her play. I worry this building corrects that weakness too much, giving her a military power rather than a weakness as part of her kit.

I also just realized how much culture and production this is likely to give Austria. Its a lot! I do worry that we are just giving Austria too much wellrounded power, her production weakness (due to all gold going to marraiges) was her achiles heel and forced some interesting military compromises for all of that power. now there is no compromise, go nuts, get a lot of allies, have a ton of extra hammers and culture, and have a super unit at the fusilier.

 

[pineappledan]

I have been saying for a long time that Austria’s base kit needs nerfs. If you’re worried about a modern era unique replacement even doing this much then that says a lot more about the base kit than it does about the additions.

4UC could present an opportunity to unstack some of the UA’s power and move it onto the components.

 

[Stalker0]

I have been saying for a long time that Austria’s base kit needs nerfs. If you’re worried about a modern era unique replacement even doing this much then that says a lot more about the base kit than it does about the additions.

4UC could present an opportunity to unstack some of the UA’s power and move it onto the components.

actually it represents my inability to read I thought this was an ARMORY replacement, not an arsenal (aka MUCH earlier in the game). at arsenal its not nearly as strong.

 

[pineappledan]

I would have thought the bonus to gunpowder units would have tipped you off that this wasn’t a medieval building.

 

[Kasch]

Could try a bonus against other religions for the UU? Would that be a better balance than getting a bonus with cs allies? It feels like that better represents the ottoman frontier as the allies represented by city states weren't really in the ottoman direction.

 

[axatin]

Only DLL thing seems to be the Grenzer CS on diplomatic marriage (@pineappledan correct me if I'm wrong), which I can sponsor. I would implement it such that the CS is updated directly when the number of marriages changes, though (or maybe one turn later).

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.