(8-05c) Aztecs Alternative, Affecting (8-13b) Egypt

[DoveCDog]

Current:

Spoiler :

1. Telpochcalli
Unlocked at Writing
150
1Maintenance
+2 Science
+1 Science for every 4 Population in City
-1 Unhappiness from Distress
1 Specialist in the city does not generate Urbanization
Gains +1Food, +1 Production, and +2 XP to units trained in this city whenever you enter a Golden Age.
Bonus stacks up to 10 times (max of +10/ and +20 XP)
Bonus is not retroactive (ie. GAs triggered before the Telpochcalli is built are not counted)

2. Otomi (replaces Warrior):
Available at Agriculture
40 Production cost
10 CS
2 Movement
Woodsman
Survivalism I
Brute Strength (+40% vs Barbarians; Kept on upgrade)

3. Jaguar (replaces Longswordsman)
Unlocked at Steel
160
Does not require Iron
23 CS
2 Movement
"Discipline"
"25 HP heal on Kill"
"War Captives" (+30% Combat Strength vs units with 50 HP or less)

4. EGYPTIAN BUILDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UB - Nilometer (replaces Water Mill and Well):
Unlocked at Masonry
150 Production cost
can be built in city without River
+3 Food, +3 Production and +2 Culture
+2 Production for every 5 Citizen
+1 Food on Rivers
+10% Food during Golden Ages

Proposition:
1. Retain Floating Gardens instead of the Telpochcalli
can be built in city without River
+3 Food, +2 Culture
+1 Food, +1 Production for every 4 Citizens
+2 Food on Lakes
+1 Food on Rivers
+10% Food during Golden Ages

2. Otomi function like Jaguars used to. Just a name change. We make them replace Spearman as well as Warriors so that the player won't have strong anti-mounted capabilities:
(replace Warrior and Spearman)
Survivalism I
Brute Strength (+40% vs Barbarians; Kept on upgrade)
+33% CS in Jungles and Forests
Tenacity (+25 heal on kill)
Brute Force
Does not have the spearman anti-mounted bonuses (is treated as a regular warrior-line unit rather than an anti-mounted spearman line unit)

3. Jaguars are redone to replace Pikemen:
-15% cost (production, gold, faith)
+33% CS in Jungles and Forests
Woodsman
Does not have the pikemen anti-mounted bonuses (is treated as a regular warrior-line unit rather than an anti-mounted spearman line unit)
Can be purchased with faith (even without Zealotry. 50% faith puchase cost increase until Zealotry is adopted)

4. EGYPTIAN BUILDING CHANGE!!!!!:
UB - Nilometer (replaces Water Mill and Well):
can be built in city without River
+3 Food, +3 Production and +2 Culture
+2 Food and +1 : Science
+3 Production for every 4 Citizens
+2 Food, +1 Production on Rivers
+10% converted to Science



Rationale:
1. Unhappiness from Boredom is an absolute killer for wide players. Removing the Aztec's culture building forces them to rush for the Zoo, which splits them away from their unique unit tech-wise.
2. Jaguars right now function fine. Being stronger than spearmen in the jungle fits great with their theme. Healing on kill makes them fun to play; the Otomi changes seem quite boring.
3. Jaguars will be a cheap pikeman replacement but without the anti-mounted capabilties, fitting with their theme. This will again help to keep the Aztecs more confined to the Jungle terrain, it will make it more difficult for them to push out. A small nerf for a powerful warmonger.
4. Since the newly proposed 4UC Nilometer for Egypt is very similar to the existing Floating Gardens, we have reworked it to focus on Science rather than Culture, as this fits better thematically. Also, it helps give the player a needed boost towards being able to unlock new wonders in order to build them on time. (Thank you Hokath for the suggestion)

 

[N.Core]

1. You need to address the Nilometer (Egypt) situation since both will be the same UB if you don't change the other.
3. Both are within the same unit line which causes a unit upgrading problem (a UU upgrades into another UU) and must be avoided in a civ design. I already complained that both of Aztec's UU will eventually be upgraded into the same thing but separated into two types, one that came from Otomi and the other from Jaguar.

 

[pineappledan]

A Jaguar being upgraded from a spearman would still have formation I.

 

[DoveCDog]

A Jaguar being upgraded from a spearman would still have formation I.

Dang it. Thanks for pointing it out. As you pointed out in the original proposition, spearmen are kinda pointless for Aztecs to build as they are largely inferior to Jaguars. In that case, I propose we get rid of spearmen to solve this problem:

1. Aztecs cannot build spearmen. Otomi upgrade directly into Jaguars.
2. Otomi replace spearmen and unlock at agriculture.
3. Otomi replace spearmen and get a slight +2 or +3 CS buff.

I'd prefer option #1, but I'm not sure if we'd be ok with deleting units for a civ.
Option #2 is iffy because both Warriors and their upgrades would be unlocked at the same tech. Again, we'd have to essentially delete the Warrior unit for Aztecs.
Option #3 if probably the safest then, though it does delay Aztecs quite a bit.

 

[DoveCDog]

1. You need to address the Nilometer (Egypt) situation since both will be the same UB if you don't change the other.
3. Both are within the same unit line which causes a unit upgrading problem (a UU upgrades into another UU) and must be avoided in a civ design. I already complained that both of Aztec's UU will eventually be upgraded into the same thing but separated into two types, one that came from Otomi and the other from Jaguar.

1. I never played as Egypt, but I can give it a try. How would the voting work? If this proposal passes but the Egypt one doesn't, then what would happen? We'd have to merge both civ votes into one then?
3. Booooooring. Given the fact that the player'd be losing anti-mounted capabilities for a good portion of the game, I think it's worth making an exception.

 

[hokath]

Seeing as your Floating Garden and Egyptian Nilometer roughly the same building, we would have to do it so people voted which civ the building was on.
So I think what you need to do is, in this post, suggest what replaces the Nilometer for Egypt.
I would then make a separate post about the units, since it seems to be independent of the unique building, so we could vote separately on that.

 

[DoveCDog]

@Stalker0 or any other Magi, can you please advise on how to proceed?

 

[DoveCDog]

We already have multiple Tercio UUs, and some UBs also overlapp, so I don't think there should be a problem keeping the Nilometer something similar. PinappleDan already made some changes from the Water Mill, I'll make just a few more. We'll make it as a strict Water Mill replacement:

UB - Nilometer (replaces Water Mill and Well):
Unlocked at Masonry
150 Production cost
can be built in city without River
+3 Food, +3 Production and +2 Culture
+2 Food and +1 : Science
+3 Production for every 4 Citizens
+2 Food, +1 Production on Rivers
+20% Food during Golden Ages

 

[hokath]

MAGI:
Ok great, this works.
If you want to add the Nilometer to the OP so it's all together.

Hokath:
Science on Nilometer makes good sense. The river management was advanced tech, some of it wasn't bested until probably Archimedean screw.
20% food in GA is quite huge, as you know it's twice the Floating Garden!
Perhaps 10% science during GA makes the separation better. Egyptian tech was really advanced after all, the Nilometer in Luxor remains from ancient times and it basically still works
And no point having bonuses to wonder building if you don't reach them in time.

 

[DoveCDog]

MAGI:
Ok great, this works.
If you want to add the Nilometer to the OP so it's all together.

Hokath:
Science on Nilometer makes good sense. The river management was advanced tech, some of it wasn't bested until probably Archimedean screw.
20% food in GA is quite huge, as you know it's twice the Floating Garden!
Perhaps 10% science during GA makes the separation better. Egyptian tech was really advanced after all, the Nilometer in Luxor remains from ancient times and it basically still works
And no point having bonuses to wonder building if you don't reach them in time.

Woops, I'm sorry! Didn't realize we had changed the magis already. I've integrated the changes into OP and agree the science is better.

Considering if it's worthwhile to go to +3 Food on river tiles then...

 

[hokath]

+3 yields on River tiles is quite a lot.
Of course Floating Garden is +1 Food, and Songhai Tabya is +1 Production.
The latter is considered pretty good, I'd say.
So even +1 Food/+1 Production looks very strong. I would consider something like +1 Culture instead. That's still better than Food or Production, but goes in a different direction. The Egyptians did love that River after all.

 

[azum4roll]

No UB has a location requirement, and they shouldn't have one.

 

[DoveCDog]

No UB has a location requirement, and they shouldn't have one.

Egypt has a river start bias. The yields are quite strong enough to make up for the cities that don't have one.

 

[azum4roll]

No, they have a desert bias.

 

[DoveCDog]

Its both I believe

 

[pineappledan]

It's just desert. These are the civs with river bias:

However, It is almost impossible to start in a desert with sufficient fertility without also being put on a floodplain/river. So a desert bias is almost implies a river bias in most cases.

 

[DoveCDog]

Added

 

[Rekk]

Added

5. Egypt Change!!!!:
Gains river start bias (in addition to desert)

If you give a civilization Coastal or River bias, everything else you give them will be ignored.

(If you give them a region bias, any avoid region bias will be ignored).

 

[DoveCDog]

Aww dang it. I thought vanilla already had multiple start bias supoort.

Thanks guys for all your inputs. I've edited it back to your suggestions - no river requirement for the nilometer.

 

[Legen]

The +10% Science during Golden Ages overlaps with Korea's UA, and the UB comes early enough that it could as well be part of Egypt's UA. Isn't there some other bonus that hasn't been explored?