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[DLL] (8-07) 4UC Brazil

pineappledan

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This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Brazilian civilization.

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

1717622208818.png


Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Amazonas (replaces Ironclad)
unlocked at Industrialization
900 :c5production: Production Cost
58:c5strength: CS
5 :c5moves: Movement Points
"Breacher"
"Riachuelo" (Can Move after attack and is Plague Immune. Refreshes its attacks when it kills a unit)​

UB - Sambadrome (replaces Opera House - Salon in EE)
available at Acoustics
600 :c5production: Production Cost
No Maintenance cost​
+4 :c5culture: Culture and +2 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Points
+10% :c5culture: Culture
10% of :c5culture:Culture in City is converted to :c5goldenage: Golden Age Points
+33% :c5greatperson: Great Musician Rate​
Begins 10 turns of "Carnaval" on completion
1 :greatwork: Great Work of Music Slot​
:greatwork:Great Works in City gain +1:tourism: Tourism​
 
Plague Immune is just against Boarded (plague ID 1) I think? It shouldn't be immune to Greek Fire (plague ID 2).
 
Why not? The promotion is kept on upgrade.
 
I think the Amazonas has a promotion problem. On the one hand, the immunity from plague means that you absolutely want dreadnought over BP, as boarding immunity is the number 1 to go BP.

BUT....this unit screams for ZOC removal from that BP tier iv that I just cannot remember right now. Once you have that....this ship becomes an absolute beast of death.

For the UB....does Brazil have any problems getting GAs right now? Not sure this building actually adds more to the table.
 
I think the Amazonas has a promotion problem. On the one hand, the immunity from plague means that you absolutely want dreadnought over BP, as boarding immunity is the number 1 to go BP.

BUT....this unit screams for ZOC removal from that BP tier iv that I just cannot remember right now. Once you have that....this ship becomes an absolute beast of death.

For the UB....does Brazil have any problems getting GAs right now? Not sure this building actually adds more to the table.
I don't know that wanting multiple promotion lines for the UU is necessarily a bad thing, it offers a certain level of tradeoffs between power now and power later depending on how you decide to build it, right?
 
Overall grade: C-
The mix of a UU that I am very happy with, paired with a UB that I am very unhappy with. The Amazonas is interesting and fun; the Sambadrome is a boring stat stick with a 1-time WLTKD trigger.

Brazil - Amazonas
Theme - A. This is the most important ship from the most important battle of the most important war that Brazil has ever engaged in. I don't think Brazil has anything in its history more iconic or worthy of depiction.
Mechanics - A. On kills this unit refreshes its attack charges. This is a reenatctment of the decisive ramming action that the Amazonas carried out against multiple boarding craft in the battle of Riachuelo. It's unique, yet pretty easy to grasp, and gives a colorful incentive for aggression. thumbs up.
Uniqueness - A. Bonus points for boats, those are rare. Only 1 other unique ironclad: the Monitor

Brazil - Sambadrome
Theme - F. This is just the building where the UA takes place. It's completely redundant.
Mechanics - D. It synergizes with the UA, but it's overall pretty weak and really boring.
Uniqueness - D. This was designed in a time period where Brazil was an uncontrollable winning machine. After several rounds of nerfs the base kit has come under control, and what was intentionally made as a useless space-filler for a civ that didn't need any help is left severely lacking.
 
You can propose ideas here. We can help you figure out what is workable, how hard it would be, etc.
 
I agree that doubling down on the carnival/samba theme feels very redundant. Moreover, as a Brazilian myself, centering the country's national identity around this one festival is kind of reductionist (even though many Brazilians are guilty of that). In short, it grinds my gears.

How about a unique Agribusiness instead of the Sambadrome? Brazil is one of the great breadbaskets of the contemporary world, and the agricultural sector has long been a centerpiece of the economy and public policy decisions (including the ever-present dilemma of agricultural expansion VS environmental preservation). And mechanically, a strong source of Food could be synergistic with the lategame Culture Victory gameplay without doubling down on Tourism bonuses. The only downsides I see would be:

A - Denmark already has the Andelsvaegelse on the same slot.
B - Finding a unique name for it would be tricky because... well, the Brazilian institutions are the poster child of the typical modern agribusiness. We call them agronegócio, which is simply the same term in Portuguese. One possibility would be Fronteira Agrícola - not a building per se, but rather the term we use for the ever-advancing frontier between cultivated and uncultivated land. In a sense, it is emblematic of Brazil, because for all the massive productivity we already have, there is much potential for it to grow even further - barring the various obstacles, of course, such as technological and environmental limitations.

 
I agree that doubling down on the carnival/samba theme feels very redundant. Moreover, as a Brazilian myself, centering the country's national identity around this one festival is kind of reductionist (even though many Brazilians are guilty of that). In short, it grinds my gears.

How about a unique Agribusiness instead of the Sambadrome? Brazil is one of the great breadbaskets of the contemporary world, and the agricultural sector has long been a centerpiece of the economy and public policy decisions (including the ever-present dilemma of agricultural expansion VS environmental preservation). And mechanically, a strong source of Food could be synergistic with the lategame Culture Victory gameplay without doubling down on Tourism bonuses. The only downsides I see would be:

A - Denmark already has the Andelsvaegelse on the same slot.
B - Finding a unique name for it would be tricky because... well, the Brazilian institutions are the poster child of the typical modern agribusiness. We call them agronegócio, which is simply the same term in Portuguese. One possibility would be Fronteira Agrícola - not a building per se, but rather the term we use for the ever-advancing frontier between cultivated and uncultivated land. In a sense, it is emblematic of Brazil, because for all the massive productivity we already have, there is much potential for it to grow even further - barring the various obstacles, of course, such as technological and environmental limitations.

I like this. Maybe some UB unlocked at Agribusiness that gives bonus to trade routes?

But I think we need to get rid of Sambadrome and the whole carnaval thing. That is a one pony trick, publicity stunt by the government that sells the entire country as 1 city for 2 days, as the sole purpose of visiting here. Since the city itself is completely dominated by cartels and militias (including the samba schools), I wouldn't want to be associated with that, even if it's just a game.

The country is completely irrelevant in terms of military to the point it needed to make an alliance with 2 other countries to stop the Paraguai invasion. Having a unique unit at this point feels totally out of my reality down here, because we rely mostly on our insulation with the ocean and the rainforest for defense. Therefore, I think the Amazonas should go away. I'm on the fence about the pracinhas, I don't think it should warrant a unique unit, as our army specialized on killing the country's own population before and after the WW2. Ideally Brazil should have no military bonus of any kind, at all.

I like the bandeirantes concept, but they were normal people that would venture into the inner country capturing natives to sell as slaves. I don't know how that translate to golden age points, and since brazil never had a golden age in real life, I think the concept of the early explorer unit could change to something else (probably with Gold).

Brazilwood: it was only the first thing that was commercialized in the colony, lasting only 30 years. Since most of the civ revolves around Pedro II, I think the brazilwood camp should be replaced with something that was heavily commercialized during his period, which would be Gold or Sugar. So the civ would lost it's unique improvement and gain some other ability with either/both Sugar and/or Gold.

The statue of Padre Cicero could be made into a unique building, or (better yet) a national wonder. It's almost the same height as the cristo redentor and is destiny of pilgrimage, It could represent the northeast region and should be all around faith.

And at last, given that the brazillian passport is apparently very coveted and has enormous value, this could be something about diplomacy. I'd say something with diplomats in capitals, since brazil doesn't have any tradition in coups or rigging elections.

TL,DR: the civ should change to something with Agribusiness (maybe with focus on Cattle), Gold, Sugar, trade routes, Faith and/or diplomacy.
 
Ideally Brazil should have no military bonus of any kind, at all.
Well… it is very hard to have 2 UU slots and no combat bonuses.
Since most of the civ revolves around Pedro II, I think the brazilwood camp should be replaced with something that was heavily commercialized during his period, which would be Gold or Sugar.
What about a Yerba mate plantation? If Brazil is going to have a unique luxury resource it seems like one that has more of an impact on the culture and a continued relevance to their economy would be preferable to brazilwood or to some component portraying an existing map resource.
I like this. Maybe some UB unlocked at Agribusiness that gives bonus to trade routes?
I was kicking around an idea for a churrascaria. All the Brazilians I know are very, very serious about bbq.
But I think we need to get rid of Sambadrome and the whole carnaval thing. That is a one pony trick, publicity stunt by the government that sells the entire country as 1 city for 2 days, as the sole purpose of visiting here.
Heh, well at that point we are talking about tearing everything out, root and branch, and redesigning Brazil’s entire in-game personality
 
Well… it is very hard to have 2 UU slots and no combat bonuses.
It currently has 3 UU, I'm proposing to ditch 2 of them and rework the Bandeirantes to something else other than culture and golden age (and science). If it must have all the units then it could a unique worker, or a unique envoy, for example. Anything unique not related to combat.
What about a Yerba mate plantation? If Brazil is going to have a unique luxury resource it seems like one that has more of an impact on the culture and a continued relevance to their economy would be preferable to brazilwood or to some component portraying an existing map resource.
Mate is a leaf used to make chimarrão, a traditional tea in the southern state that's served in a kind of bowl with a metal straw. Are you talking about the leaf itself or the beverage? I see that kinda overlapping with the Tea resource already in the game.

I was kicking around an idea for a churrascaria. All the Brazilians I know are very, very serious about bbq.
It's a different barbecue. Most of what I see in videos are barbecue made in gas ovens, with a lid. Here it's all fire and stove. Would it be that much different from what you have in Canada? Along with the chimarrão, the barbecue from the south is another strong identity trait, so going with chimarrão and churrascaria you would completely change the focus from Rio de Janeiro city to Rio Grande do Sul state. What does the Churrascaria does?
Heh, well at that point we are talking about tearing everything out, root and branch, and redesigning Brazil’s entire in-game personality
The leader personality traits could remain. My only problem is that I look at the full kit, and that represents 1 city, for 2 days a year. You can't design an entire civ around that small time frame.
 
It currently has 3 UU
No, with 4UC Brazil has 2UUs: bandeirantes and Amazonas. The pracinha is not used.

a unique worker, or a unique envoy, for example. Anything unique not related to combat
All civilizations have 2 unique military Units and 2 economic bonuses. Current Brazil’s economic components are a unique building (sambadrome) and a unique improvement (brazilwood camp).

A unique worker or civilian unit like a worker or diplomatic unit would be an economic bonus because they have no combat abilities and don’t obsolete, so they would have to replace either the UB or UI. A unique civilian unit would only be considered for a UU slot if it gave some sort of combat bonus. For an example of this, see the Polynesian fishing boat, which gives a combat aura.
Mate is a leaf used to make chimarrão, a traditional tea in the southern state that's served in a kind of bowl with a metal straw. Are you talking about the leaf itself or the beverage? I see that kinda overlapping with the Tea resource already in the game.
Yes, I am saying the Brazilwood camp could be changed to a Yerbamate plantation. Here is a mod with a Yerba Mate UI


I think it’s sufficiently different from tea.
It's a different barbecue. Most of what I see in videos are barbecue made in gas ovens, with a lid. Here it's all fire and stove. Would it be that much different from what you have in Canada?
BBQ is not nearly as big of a deal in Canada.

My perception of Brazilian culture is coloured by the fact that all of the Brazilians I know are from Rio Grande do Sul, so my exposure to Brazilian culture and people is southern Brazilian.
What does the Churrascaria does?
We have code for :c5happy:happiness for each copy of X resource owned by a city, so we could sort of turn cattle into a luxury resource.

… that’s as far as I got.
The leader personality traits could remain. My only problem is that I look at the full kit, and that represents 1 city, for 2 days a year. You can't design an entire civ around that small time frame.
If I am understanding your post, you are suggesting we change Brazil from a cultural civ with bonuses for golden ages into something else entirely. Completely redesign the civ from the ground up.
 
For UB ideas:
  • a standalone faith purchased building related to the Jesuits, with bonuses related to owning and acquiring more forest/jungle tiles, as the Jesuits were both important to the assimilation of natives and an anti-slavery voice during Colonial Brazil.
  • an unique research lab focused on food-related bonuses as its extras, which would represent what enabled Brazil to change from a major food importer to a major food exporter in the last decades.
On the points discussed so far:
Brazilwood: it was only the first thing that was commercialized in the colony, lasting only 30 years. Since most of the civ revolves around Pedro II, I think the brazilwood camp should be replaced with something that was heavily commercialized during his period, which would be Gold or Sugar. So the civ would lost it's unique improvement and gain some other ability with either/both Sugar and/or Gold.
I'm against that. Brazilwood was traded and exploited in waves based on the time period, and this trade was impactful enough that the country is named after that plant. The colony had many different official names throughout its existence that weren't used in practice (e.g. Ilha de Vera Cruz, Nova Lusitânia, Cabrália), as everyone would just call the colony as "land of Brazilwood", eventually shortened to just Brazil.

BBQ is not nearly as big of a deal in Canada.

My perception of Brazilian culture is coloured by the fact that all of the Brazilians I know are from Rio Grande do Sul, so my exposure to Brazilian culture and people is southern Brazilian.
The barbecue part is a strong point in the south due to its climate being very similar to Europe's, which is ideal for the use of the same breeds of the best cattle that the Europeans use. The rest of the country is too hot for those breeds, and rely instead on a breed imported from India, whose climate most closely mirrors the rest of Brazil. The majority of Brazilians mainly make barbecue out of sacred Indian cows (especially the northeast part of Brazil, which is predominantly semi-arid), but, for obvious reasons, India has not spent centuries breeding them for tender meat like the Europeans did with their cattle.

There's even a joke among Brazilians that heaven would be on a warm beach in the northeast part of Brazil with barbecue from the south, while hell would be on the cold beaches in the south with barbecue from the northeast. Exaggerated, but you get the point.

I like the bandeirantes concept, but they were normal people that would venture into the inner country capturing natives to sell as slaves. I don't know how that translate to golden age points, and since brazil never had a golden age in real life, I think the concept of the early explorer unit could change to something else (probably with Gold).
The Bandeirantes doesn't give :c5goldenage: GAP. The original concept was to give it Border expansion and the ability to enter rival territory, since the unit was to represent how Brazil's land expanded to roughly its current size. In the end, it was implemented emphasizing their entrepreneur side, making it generate its current yields (including gold) and the ability to build certain improvements (e.g. mines, alluding to the gold rush in Minas Gerais).

My only problem is that I look at the full kit, and that represents 1 city, for 2 days a year. You can't design an entire civ around that small time frame.
The person (another Brazilian iirc) who proposed the current Brazil's UA wanted a mechanic that rewarded Brazil for amassing :c5happy: Happiness, and didn't intend to drastically Brazil's role from how Firaxis implemented BWN Brazil. I'm ok with renaming the UA around something else, though.
 
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No, with 4UC Brazil has 2UUs: bandeirantes and Amazonas. The pracinha is not used.


All civilizations have 2 unique military Units and 2 economic bonuses. Current Brazil’s economic components are a unique building (sambadrome) and a unique improvement (brazilwood camp).

A unique worker or civilian unit like a worker or diplomatic unit would be an economic bonus because they have no combat abilities and don’t obsolete, so they would have to replace either the UB or UI. A unique civilian unit would only be considered for a UU slot if it gave some sort of combat bonus. For an example of this, see the Polynesian fishing boat, which gives a combat aura.

Yes, I am saying the Brazilwood camp could be changed to a Yerbamate plantation. Here is a mod with a Yerba Mate UI


I think it’s sufficiently different from tea.

BBQ is not nearly as big of a deal in Canada.

My perception of Brazilian culture is coloured by the fact that all of the Brazilians I know are from Rio Grande do Sul, so my exposure to Brazilian culture and people is southern Brazilian.

We have code for :c5happy:happiness for each copy of X resource owned by a city, so we could sort of turn cattle into a luxury resource.

… that’s as far as I got.

If I am understanding your post, you are suggesting we change Brazil from a cultural civ with bonuses for golden ages into something else entirely. Completely redesign the civ from the ground up.
So there is 2 initial possibilities:

a) Replace the Sambadrome with the Churrascaria (unlocks with Agribusiness). Replace Brazilwood Camps with Yerbamate. The Amazonas I don't know what to to with it besides replacing it with some other, more current, combat group. Special police forces, divers war group, among others.

b) Replace the Sambadrome with a unique civilian unit, keep Brazilwood and replace the culture/science from the techs with more gold.

I'm suggesting to turn the civ into a religion/gold/diplo focused civ. Pedro II' ability would give Faith instead of tourism.
 
I'm against that. Brazilwood was traded and exploited in waves based on the time period, and this trade was impactful enough that the country is named after that plant. The colony had many different official names throughout its existence that weren't used in practice (e.g. Ilha de Vera Cruz, Nova Lusitânia, Cabrália), as everyone would just call the colony as "land of Brazilwood", eventually shortened to just Brazil.
It was just the name that "sticked". It was important for Portugal to get this new dye in the beginning but it faded away quickly. What I don't like about it isn't the name or time period, it's it gives a bunch of different yields, and this was just a product that was taken to Portugal, nothing else. I could see it even being a UI for Portugal, since all the benefits were for them. I prefer the yerba mate, even if it screams "south" along with a barbecue house UB.
The Bandeirantes doesn't give :c5goldenage: GAP. The original concept was to give it Border expansion and the ability to enter rival territory, since the unit was to represent how Brazil's land expanded to roughly its current size. In the end, it was implemented emphasizing their entrepreneur side, making it generate its current yields (including gold) and the ability to build certain improvements (e.g. mines, alluding to the gold rush in Minas Gerais).
I could swear I played with a Bandeirantes that gave GAP on discovering at some point, but I stand corrected.
The point is, they generated no Science or Culture, they generated slaves and Gold.
The person (another Brazilian iirc) who proposed the current Brazil's UA wanted a mechanic that rewarded Brazil for amassing :c5happy: Happiness, and didn't intend to drastically Brazil's role from how Firaxis implemented BWN Brazil. I'm ok with renaming the UA around something else, though.
Probably Firaxis only knew Rio for Carnaval, and made the civ around that. Can't blame them for that if that's what marketed over seas, but I'd really love to play with a more accurate, real version of my country.
 
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