[Vote] (8-11) China

[hokath]

Choose which components you want to see for China!
"The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide. Thus it has ever been." - Romance of the Three Kingdoms

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(8-11) 4UC China: Unique Military Diplomatic Unit

Links: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-11-4uc-china.690044/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-11a-china-rework.690538/ UU2 - Treasure Ship (renamed Baochuan, unique Naval Melee unit class) Unlocked at Astronomy Does not obsolete Requires 1 Paper 50 :c5production: +150...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll

New Unit - Treasure Ship (renamed Baochuan, unique Naval Melee unit class)
Unlocked at Astronomy
Does not obsolete
Requires 1 Paper
50 +150 per era (350 at unlock)
32
4
Can be expended in City-State territory to conduct a Diplomatic Mission
Expedition (+70 Influence, gain untradeable copies of resources owned by the City-State for 50 turns (Standard speed), and Gold based on the distance from your Capital when performing a Diplomatic Mission.)

New Building - Examination Hall (replaces Chancery)
Unlocked at Education
300 Production cost
+1 Gold for every City-State Friend and +2 Production for every Ally
+10% Production to Diplomatic Units
15 GPP toward Great Person with most points on Citizen Birth, scaling with Era
1 Civil Servant Specialists Slots
"Royal Signet" promotion to Diplomatic Units trained in the City
+2 Gold for Great Works in the city

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(8-11a) 4UC China - Revolt China UA and Tweaked Baochuan and Siheyuan

Current : See pineappledan 4UC version for China here. Proposal : UA - Mandate of Heaven When you found, conquer or liberate Cities or start a :c5goldenage: Golden Age, permanently gain +2 :c5food: Food in all existing Cities. When the Empire is :c5unhappy: Unhappy, gain +25% :c5faith: Faith...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @Hinin
Sponsor(s): @Recursive

UA Change: When you found, conquer or liberate Cities or start a Golden Age, permanently gain +2 Food in all existing Cities. When the Empire is Unhappy, gain +25% Faith and Culture globally (not in Cities) and +25% Production towards Units in all Cities (including Civilians). Cannot prevent Growth, and Cities revolt twice as fast.

New Unit - Baochuan (replaces Frigate)
available at Astronomy (instead of Navigation)
500 Production cost (+125)
Requires Iron
28 CS / 37 RCS / 2 Range (+3 / +2 / 0)
4 Movement / 2 Vision
Quick Study
Hull III
Kowtow - Whenever gaining Combat Experience, gain as much Influence with the nearest City-State ; lost with upgrade

New Building - Examination Hall from the base proposal

Old Improvement - Siheyuan
Unlocked at Currency
Can only be built on flat land next to a City or to two other Siheyuan
+1 Production / Gold / Science
+1 Production / Gold / Science during WLTKD
+1 GGeneral / GAdmiral points during Golden Ages
Tech bonuses :
- Civil Service : +1 Culture
- Architecture : +1 Production / Science
- Electricity : +1 Gold / Culture

 

[pineappledan]

Abstain I guess.

I don't like completely reworking all the China mechanics, dumping the global stacking/decaying yields mechanic while retaining the overall idea of an all-rounder civ with strong-but-unstable global bonuses.
I also don't like adding a kit-warping naval envoy component that turns a rounded civ into a diplomatic one.
One is a rework in mechanics while keeping the theme intact; the other is a rework in theme while keeping the existing mechanics intact. Neither is warranted, and no proposals for a less ambitious proposal for China were sponsored/allowed.
What a mess.

 

[azum4roll]

You added the diplomatic focus yourself with the original Baochuan.

 

[Rekk]

You added the diplomatic focus yourself with the original Baochuan.

One is a rework in mechanics while keeping the theme intact;

 

[pineappledan]

You added the diplomatic focus yourself with the original Baochuan.

That is such an incredible distortion. The diplomatic focus on the original baochuan is nothing like what you have done here.

4UC added a frigate with a mediocre diplomatic bonus. It was still a stronger military unit first and foremost; the influence bonus was meant to counterbalance the small CV focus on China’s existing kit from the UA’s GW creation trigger and the Exam hall’s extra yields to GWs. The stated intent was to keep China neutral on win conditions, with modest incentives and nudges in several directions. The diplomatic bonus could have been dropped entirely and the resulting stronger frigate would have been 80% similar.

You turned the baochuan into a unique unitclass naval envoy that consumes paper, and is thus incapable of being fielded in a navy. You then tripled-down on the diplomacy bonus. This will either make the Baochuan completely irrelevant as a component or warp the entire kit around it and radically shift china’s wincon balance. There is no in-between.

It shows how much confidence and care you have in your proposal if you feel like you have to misrepresent what it does and draw false equivalences.

 

[doublex55]

That is such an incredible distortion. The diplomatic focus on the original baochuan is nothing like what you have done here.

4UC added a frigate with a mediocre diplomatic bonus. It was still a stronger military unit first and foremost; the influence bonus was meant to counterbalance the small CV focus on China’s existing kit from the UA’s GW creation trigger and the Exam hall’s extra yields to GWs. The stated intent was to keep China neutral on win conditions, with modest incentives and nudges in several directions. The diplomatic bonus could have been dropped entirely and the resulting stronger frigate would have been 80% similar.

You turned the baochuan into a unique unitclass naval envoy that consumes paper, and is thus incapable of being fielded in a navy. You then tripled-down on the diplomacy bonus. This will either make the Baochuan completely irrelevant as a component or warp the entire kit around it and radically shift china’s wincon balance. There is no in-between.

It shows how much confidence and care you have in your proposal if you feel like you have to misrepresent what it does and draw false equivalences.

Won’t the AI be really terrible with China with the new UA? Maybe it shouldn’t have the cannot prevent growth part.

 

[pineappledan]

8-11a is a daring and experimental rework, but it doesn’t claim to be anything else. It will probably take a lot of work for the AI to be able to handle.

I wanted a more constrained option to be made available, but it was vetoed. All we have are two radical chinas

 

[azum4roll]

Either way, the treasure ship itself shouldn't be used as a unique combat unit. The treasure fleet had military ships, but the treasure ship wasn't one.

Your renaming it to War Junk is better, but those ships aren't really any special, just a general term for warship. Does China even need a naval UU?

 

[pineappledan]

The treasure fleets contained warships.

China could have almost any base unit under the sun as a UU. A junk is as valid as pretty much anything else you can think of.

 

[Rekk]

When you found, conquer or liberate Cities or start a Golden Age, permanently gain +2 Food in all existing Cities. When the Empire is Unhappy, gain +25% Faith and Culture globally (not in Cities) and +25% Production towards Units in all Cities (including Civilians). Cannot prevent Growth, and Cities revolt twice as fast.

Does this UA even fit into the 4 line text box?

 

[pineappledan]

It can be shortened to:
When you found, conquer or liberate Cities or start a Golden Age, permanently gain +2 Food in all existing Cities. When the Empire is Unhappy, gain +25% Faith, Culture, and Unit Production globally. Cannot prevent Growth, and Cities revolt twice as fast.

for an (albeit imprecise) comparison, here is America's UA text
Military Land Units start with Sentry Promotion. The cost of purchasing a tile is reduced by 25%, and is reset upon founding a City. Purchasing a tile grants +20 Production, scaling with Era. Can purchase tiles owned by others.

And that is almost exactly 3 lines when in-game:

 

[Rekk]

8-11a China may have better unit production while unhappy, but her units will also will have -10% combat strength, at minimum.

There's also a high likelihood that she won't be able to choose her own ideology. No tourism bonuses to speak of, and unhappy before ideological pressure sets in suggests that the +25% culture is going to have to do some serious heavy lifting to keep from insurrection forcing you to change to whatever ideology is influencing you most. The best way of avoiding this is by maximizing tourism bonuses on whichever civilizations have the ideology you want, which is somewhat interesting (but also not really how AI works in general?).

 

[hokath]

found, conquer or liberate Cities

I think we refer to these collectively as just "gain a City", is it?

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.