(8-18) 4UC Greece

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Greek civilization.

Spoiler Current kit :

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Klepht (replaces Commando - Light Infantry in EE):

available at Railroads​

600 Production Cost​

34 CS​

3 Movement​

"Ignores Terrain Costs"​

"+25% when Attacking"​

"Can Move After Attacking"​

"Philhellenism" (Gain Gold and Production for every CS Ally or Friend on Fight)​

UW - Parthenon (replaces Scriverner's Office):

available at Writing​

Production cost scales with number of cities​

+1 Faith, +2 Gold, and +3 Culture​

+3 City Strength​

+1 Great Diplomat Point​

+2 Paper resources (up from 1)​

1 Civil Servant Specialist Slot​

+25% Production towards Diplomatic Units on empire (up from +10% locally)​

Receive 2 free Emissaries on construction (up from 1)​

1Food in City for Every City-State Friend​

1Food and 1Faith in City for Every City-State Ally​

Diplomatic units in this City get the "Proxenos" promotion (Parthenon gains +2 Gold Per Turn from Diplomatic Missions)​

+3 Culture to Markets on Empire​

Acropolis

Changed to Gymnasion​

removed +3 City Strength​

Changed base yield from 3Culture and 3 Tourism to 3Culture and 2Science​

Parthenon WW

Changed to Nalanda​

Free Great Work changed from Art (Phidias Showing the Frieze of the Parthenon to his Friends) to Writing ("Way of the Bodhisattva" by Shantideva)​

 

[pineappledan]

Justification for 4UC changes and additions:

Klepht:
We don't have a unique commando and I really wanted to portray something from the post-classical Greek era. Unfortunately, Byzantium exists, so medieval Greek culture is kind of a no-go zone. That leaves post-Ottoman Greece, and the best candidate for that is the Klepht.
The idea of the Klephts works pretty well with the idea of Greece as a diplomatic civ, because the Greek war of independence was largely successful thanks to international sympathy for their cause. This is portrayed with the giving of gold and production by fighting via the philhellenism bonus.
In general the Klepht are not terribly strong, but they have some interesting utility with how they are able to hit and run. The Greeks already have combat a significant combat bonus in their UA, so we didn't feel it was necessary to give them something very powerful, and we felt it was important to get away from piling all of their unique unlocks into the early game, because that would risk making Greece into a civ that coasts on a powerful early game spike.

Parthenon:
Earlier versions of this component were a market, but the diplomatic bonuses unlocked before diplomatic units did, so it was awkward.
The Court scribe has no unique replacements on it right now, so there was also the advantage of unstacking the Bazaar and the Greek Market.
The new Parthenon enhances Greece's diplomatic bonuses by giving Greece a unique, stacking bonus to gold generation from diplomatic missions.
With this, Greece has the unique ability to get a guaranteed bonus from diplomatic actions in addition to the conditional, decaying friend/ally bonuses.
The bonus works very well thematically with the Parthenon, which functioned as the treasury of Athens and the Delian league some time after its construction.

Gymnasion
The Parthenon and the Acropolis both existing in the game at the same time was never great. both the civ and the wonder were depicting the same thing.
The old Acropolis gave tourism as a base yield to Greece, which they have very little use for, since their primary victory pursuits are diplomatic and military. The 3 per city was never a worthwhile bonus. Adding some is both thematically stronger and far more useful to Greece.

Nalanda
This wonder was chosen as a replacement for the Parthenon primarily because it's not Greek. We have way too many Greek and Mediterranean classical wonders.
Nalanda is a Great Work of Writing, so this balances out the overall number of GWWriting wonders and GWArt wonders. It also works much better with the timing. Parthenon World Wonder had a theming bonus that required you generate another GWArt a full era before the artist guild unlocks. With Nalanda switched to GWWriting, the guild unlocks at the same tech. You could also use the free Writer from Heroic Epic and fill your slots that way for an immediate theme.

 

[Chippy Smith]

The idea of the Klephts works pretty well with the idea of Greece as a diplomatic civ, because the Greek war of independence was largely successful thanks to international sympathy for their cause. This is portrayed with the giving of gold and production by fighting via the philhellenism bonus.

Would having the Klepht's actions directly increase/decrease influence as well be too much? I really enjoy the design of the Klepht, but I feel that it is a tad weak, especially compared to other UUs that unlock at Rifling.

 

[Chippy Smith]

Klepht

Should be noted that Klephts unlock at a different tech than Commandos (Rifling / Railroad respectively). Same place on the tree, but Rifling at the bottom, Railroad second from the top.

Yields on attacking for the Klepht are nice and flavorful, but may ultimately be underwhelming. L. Vern's AI test games has Greece as the #16 civ in terms of winrate for both 3rd and 4th UC as well as base Vox Populi. This suggests that Greece's new toys aren't bad by any means, but also aren't as good as others. For a mid/late game unit the Klepht could use some juice, especially when considering that the rest of Greece's kit comes into play by the classical era. How much Gold and Production do they earn per Ally/Friend when attacking? Do they earn any when defending? Considering the historical inspiration, maybe giving them Great Musician Points and Faith on attack/kill/pillage would be worth considering. Klephts as a bandit unit not having any bonuses towards pillage is a choice, understandable considering there's many other units with such a bonus. Or if increasing its bonus yields is considered too much, than maybe having it unlock at Economics with a CS of 32 would be a noticeable buff. It would be a strong unit for late Renaissance.

Everything else about Greece seems appropriate enough. Will there be other discussion threads for each Civ's 3rd and 4th component?

 

[pineappledan]

Should be noted that Klephts unlock at a different tech than Commandos (Rifling / Railroad respectively). Same place on the tree, but Rifling at the bottom, Railroad second from the top.

Good catch. I'm changing that. 4UC is positively lousy with alternative tech unlocks and it needs to be toned down. The Klepht are proposed to go back to Railroads, same as Commando

 

[N.Core]

But the Parthenon has a unique building model to indicate that it's a wonder (which also has a building progress indicator). A big no from me to change it.

 

[pineappledan]

A UNW with a model is pretty special.

 

[N.Core]

A UNW with a model is pretty special.

Disagree. Newcomers who played Civ 5 would mistake it as the WW being built by the other civ.
Avoid confusing people who are getting used to it.

 

[azum4roll]

The alternative is removing the model, which is a sin.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah that seems like you have a really low opinion of newcomers. I don’t think a building having a unique model trip them up at all. Lots of regular buildings already have models.

 

[azum4roll]

I'd increase Klepht's CS so they can actually defend themselves. But at the end this is a recon UU so it's best to replace it with something else

 

[rkkn]

Does this change to parthenon remove the ability to see if a city is building it by having vision of the city and its surrounding tiles?

 

[pineappledan]

Yes, the wonder model would stay with the Parthenon. Nalanda behaves like other World Wonders with no models, like the Roman Forum.

 

[N.Core]

Does this change to parthenon remove the ability to see if a city is building it by having vision of the city and its surrounding tiles?

Yes, you can no longer see the wonder being built by a city because the model is moved to a UNW which is stupid.

Yes, the wonder model would stay with the Parthenon. Nalanda behaves like other World Wonders with no models, like the Roman Forum.

Which is worse.

 

[Efialtis]

There is a modmod that splits Greece into 2 Civs one with Alexander and one with Pericles as their leaders.
Will the integration and subsequent kit modification prevent it from functioning?

 

[pineappledan]

No. Nothing about Greece is changed by that custom civ except the leader scene, which is purely aesthetic.

 

[Stalker0]

Overall this one looks cool, I like the concepts.

The "Philhellenism" concept is confusing, I'm not sure exactly what's happening there.

 

[KlHannibal2]

Justification for 4UC changes and additions:

Klepht:
We don't have a unique commando and I really wanted to portray something from the post-classical Greek era. Unfortunately, Byzantium exists, so medieval Greek culture is kind of a no-go zone. That leaves post-Ottoman Greece, and the best candidate for that is the Klepht.
The idea of the Klephts works pretty well with the idea of Greece as a diplomatic civ, because the Greek war of independence was largely successful thanks to international sympathy for their cause. This is portrayed with the giving of gold and production by fighting via the philhellenism bonus.
In general the Klepht are not terribly strong, but they have some interesting utility with how they are able to hit and run. The Greeks already have combat a significant combat bonus in their UA, so we didn't feel it was necessary to give them something very powerful, and we felt it was important to get away from piling all of their unique unlocks into the early game, because that would risk making Greece into a civ that coasts on a powerful early game spike.

Parthenon:
Earlier versions of this component were a market, but the diplomatic bonuses unlocked before diplomatic units did, so it was awkward.
The Court scribe has no unique replacements on it right now, so there was also the advantage of unstacking the Bazaar and the Greek Market.
The new Parthenon enhances Greece's diplomatic bonuses by giving Greece a unique, stacking bonus to gold generation from diplomatic missions.
With this, Greece has the unique ability to get a guaranteed bonus from diplomatic actions in addition to the conditional, decaying friend/ally bonuses.
The bonus works very well thematically with the Parthenon, which functioned as the treasury of Athens and the Delian league some time after its construction.

Gymnasion
The Parthenon and the Acropolis both existing in the game at the same time was never great. both the civ and the wonder were depicting the same thing.
The old Acropolis gave tourism as a base yield to Greece, which they have very little use for, since their primary victory pursuits are diplomatic and military. The 3 per city was never a worthwhile bonus. Adding some is both thematically stronger and far more useful to Greece.

Nalanda
This wonder was chosen as a replacement for the Parthenon primarily because it's not Greek. We have way too many Greek and Mediterranean classical wonders.
Nalanda is a Great Work of Writing, so this balances out the overall number of GWWriting wonders and GWArt wonders. It also works much better with the timing. Parthenon World Wonder had a theming bonus that required you generate another GWArt a full era before the artist guild unlocks. With Nalanda switched to GWWriting, the guild unlocks at the same tech. You could also use the free Writer from Heroic Epic and fill your slots that way for an immediate theme.

I tried the Klepht back in the day when it was still a ranged unit. The Philhellenism promotiin worked much better then. You could safely shoot every turn to get the yields. With a road-network, you could even rotate them like ranged skirmishers and get several of them to shoot from a single tile. As a scout unit however, the ability became much harder and riskier to use. I agree it's more correct historically, but man, were those ranged Klephts stronger than the current one.

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: A-
The sore spot for Greece’s extra components is the Klepht’s specific bonuses. I wonder if the Klepht couldn’t just double the CS ally combat bonus and call it a day? The Parthenon is rad and the number of Greek world wonders in the classical era is absolute cancer. I see giving the Parthenon as a national wonder to Greece as an absolute win.

Klepht
Theme - A. Anyone thinking this is some “diversity pick” for Greece doesn’t know their Greek history. The Klephts and Armatoloi are central to the Greek national struggle and their modern identity. The idea of the struggle of the philhellenes to support a nascent Greek independence movement is actually captured really well by the % combat bonus that is already inside the UA.
Mechanics - C. Thematic but overcomplicated. The philhellenism promotion could stand to be looked at. It’s definitely a good thematic idea, but the bonuses that are in place are computationally intense for relatively little payoff.
Uniqueness - B. This is the only unique Commando in the game with 4UC. They have strong thematic ties, good art, and unquestionable relevance to Greek history. The only question is if any of this comes across with the current unit or if it’s just a slightly better version of a generally unpopular unit.

Parthenon
Theme - S. I like how this makes 1 less Greek world wonder in the classical era; we are positively drowning on them. I like how the stacking gold yields portray the function of the parthenon better than the base game’s bonuses to the same building.
Mechanics - A. I like how the Parthenon is a grower, not a shower, giving a stacking bonus that snowballs throughout the game.
Uniqueness - A. I like how it’s the only unique scrivener’s office boosting diplomatic actions in a way that nothing else in the game does. I like how it’s a permanent snowball that brings to the center the Delian League and the tenuous financial ties that kept the Greek political unit functioning.

 

[Stalker0]

MAGI: Need clarification on "Philhellenism" . How much prod and gold, what does on "fight" mean?