[Vote] (8-20) Inca

[hokath]

Choose which components you want to see for the Inca!

---

(8-20) 4UC Inca - Tap Into City Connections, Diversify Yield Bonuses (Less Overall FOOD)

Original proposal: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-20-4uc-inca.689993/ Counter proposal: UA - Great Andean Road Units ignore terrain costs of Hills and Mountains. Cities, Roads and Railroads may be built on Mountains, which produce :c5food: Food, :c5gold: Gold, and :c5science...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @ma_kuh
Sponsor(s): @axatin

UA Change: Units ignore terrain costs of Hills and Mountains. Cities, Roads and Railroads
may be built on Mountains, which produce Food, Gold, and Science, scaling
with Era. City Connections provide 50% of their gold value as Culture.

New Unit - Chasqui (replaces Scout):
available at Sailing
90 Production Cost
12 CS
2 Movement
"Chasquiwasi" (+1 movement and +5 HP on heal inside Friendly Territory. Double Movement in Mountains.)
"Medic I"
"Ignores Terrain"
"Treasure Hunter I"

New Building - Qullqa (replaces Granary)
available at Pottery
65 production cost
1 maintenance
+1 Food
15% of is carried over after a new Citizen is born
Gain 25 when constructed
+1 Food and Production to nearby Wheat, Rice, Maize, and Bananas, Cattle, and Sheep
+1 Production to nearby Bison and Deer
Grants a Free Smokehouse upon completion
Allows to be moved from this City along trade routes inside your civilization

Old Improvement - Pata-Pata
available at Masonry
can be built on Hills
+1 +2 Production
+1 Food
+1 Food for each adjacent Mountain or Pata-Pata
+1 Production Food for each adjacent Mountain
+1 Gold Food to each adjacent Farm
Civil Service: +1 Culture
Fertilizer: +1 Production
Robotics: +3 Food

---

(8-20a) 4UC Inca: Pata-Pata Yield Rebalance, UU2 Rework, and Qullqa Simplification

Links: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-20-4uc-inca.689993/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-20a-4uc-inca-tap-into-city-connections-diversify-yield-bonuses-less-overall-food.690571/...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll

UA Change: the era scaling yields on Mountains are changed from 1 to 1

New Unit - Inti Maceman (replaces Longswordsman)
Unlocked at Steel
Standard costs
Requires 1 Iron
23 (+1)
Discipline
Sentinel of the Sun (+25% Combat Strength in Hill and Mountain. +15 Hit Points.)

New Building - Qullqa (replaces Granary)
Unlocked at Pottery
Standard costs and maintenance
+1 +2
+25 Food on completion
15% of Food is carried over when a new Citizen is born
+1 Food to Bananas, Wheat, Rice, and Maize
Enables Food Internal Trade Routes from this City
+5% Production and Gold to City Connections
Total non-specialist Food consumption cannot exceed Food production

Old Improvement - Pata-pata
2 2
+1 per 2 adjacent Farms, Pata-Pata, or Mountains
Farms get +1 per 2 adjacent Farms or Pata-Pata
Civil Service: +1
Chemistry: +1
Fertilizer: +1
Ballistics: +1

 

[pineappledan]

I’m not loving the maceman’s specific stats, but the chasqui can go jump in a lake. I also really like the 2 adjacent ability here, and how it allows regular farms and terrace farms to seamlessly boost each other.

 

[jarcast2]

I am checking which new proposed UCs need new assets.
Inti Maceman is a new UU, we may use the following art from this Inca mod.

Flag and sv icon:

3d model:

Attached is the zip with relevant files.

 

[ma_kuh]

I agree the maceman is better than the chasqui. I'm trying not to think too much about the idea that my proposal might be drowned out because of something from the original 4UC mod, which I have no attachment to keeping.


I'll reiterate my case against 8-20a's non-military components in this thread, for visibility.


These two abilities:

+5% Production and Gold to City Connections
Total non-specialist Food consumption cannot exceed Food production

are problematic for two different reasons.

The +5% scaling per city is negligible for such an early building, the Granary. This ability only steps into its full power an era or two into the game, and risks swinging wildly in power level when comparing non-standard game settings like Quick versus Marathon speeds. It's the building equivalent of a unique unit whose upgraded basic unit is more meaningful than the unique unit itself.

Preventing food consumption from exceeding production is conceptually interesting, but in practice the Inca have a glut of food, stemming mainly from the pata-pata's fixation on providing and boosting food not only for itself but also nearby farms. I don't see the over-consumption ability coming up frequently, and even the most unique application from the 4UC mod, over-working Specialists, is removed in this iteration. It doesn't feel like a move in the right direction.


In my proposal I am trying to make pata-pata adjacencies more unique and interesting, with a dash of historicity, by spreading out the yield types based on which farming-tier is being worked. So high-level mountains provide science and food, mid-level terrace farms provide production and food (and later culture with tech), and low-level farms provide gold and food. Each farming layer has a unique reason to be worked, depending on your needs. I think that's much better than just giving more food and more production to an already food-and-production rich civ.

 

[hokath]

It's a constraint from the way we did these proposals that there are several moving parts in contest.

Hopefully we can revisit some of the pain-points, like this one, in the next congress when the dust has settled.

 

[azum4roll]

and risks swinging wildly in power level when comparing non-standard game settings like Quick versus Marathon speeds

Why?

Preventing food consumption from exceeding production is conceptually interesting, but in practice the Inca have a glut of food, stemming mainly from the pata-pata's fixation on providing and boosting food not only for itself but also nearby farms. I don't see the over-consumption ability coming up frequently, and even the most unique application from the 4UC mod, over-working Specialists, is removed in this iteration. It doesn't feel like a move in the right direction.

It's an early game ability. You pretty much have 0 food at start before unlocking Pata-pata.

Your Qullqa boosts a bunch of resources that don't appear at an Incan start (except Sheep and Deer).

 

[pineappledan]

It's not just the Chasqui

• I prefer @azum4roll's changes to the UI. Making the Pata-pata give/receive the same two-adjacent bonus as the base farms makes the two work seamlessly. It makes intuitive sense, because the UI is just farms on hills.
• I like that Azum's proposal limits itself to the new components by not adding to the UA. Also your UA risks spilling over the UA description space with the new ability.
• I don't like the free smokehouse for many reasons
  • That is a ton of free hammers very early
  • It pillages the trapping tech, and makes that tech hard to justify for Inca
  • It's a massive amount of ultra-early tempo. combined with the hammer savings and the slinger UU, this will make Inca a early game beast, which I don't like much
• Even if Azum neutered it, I like the stagnation/starvation immunity ability and your proposal dropped it.

To your specific criticisms:

in practice the Inca have a glut of food

This is addressed in Azum's proposal in a few ways:

• He removes as a base yield on mountains
• He changes the 1 per adjacent mountain to 1 per 2 adjacent mountains

His Pata-pata has more on it, sure, but I would argue your pata-pata doesn't have enough yields to be competitive.

I don't see the over-consumption ability coming up frequently, and even the most unique application from the 4UC mod, over-working Specialists, is removed in this iteration.

Like I said I like the starvation immunity bonus. I am hopeful that after Azum implements his weakened version, we can adjust it to be more relevant and simpler by allowing it to consider specialist food consumption.

In any case, you say it is moving in the wrong direction, but I think it is moving in the right direction. It's not quite there, but it's closer.

The +5% scaling per city is negligible for such an early building, the Granary. This ability only steps into its full power an era or two into the game, and risks swinging wildly in power level when comparing non-standard game settings like Quick versus Marathon speeds. It's the building equivalent of a unique unit whose upgraded basic unit is more meaningful than the unique unit itself.

I disagree with your assertion that an early game building should not grow in strength later on. The Ethiopian Stele's +25% faith during Golden Ages comes to mind.
The +5% gold to connections per city on empire is sensitive to map size and other things, that is true. However, the base game has chosen to ignore that in other cases, like giving this same bonus to Rome since at least 2016, and Factories giving +2 to themselves globally since 2020. This hasn't been seen as an issue for years.

 

[ma_kuh]

It's less that it's an "early game bonus that scale", and more that it's functionally nothing that early in the game. In fact cities have negative connection gold on rivers before they grow a few population. It's basically an ability that only turns on well after the building's initial construction. It's better implemented (in my opinion) as a civ-level trait (i.e. the UA) than a building-level bonus.

We saw with Babylon's Walls that global percentage-scaling based on one-per-city effects/abilities does have a large impact based on game speed, (by virtue of the fact that slower modes have more land to claim and therefore more cities settled). I will grant you that aiming for balance in non-Standard speeds isn't necessarily required, but there's also a difference between ignoring old problems and causing new ones.

The Ethiopian Stele is a local +25% modifier, isn't it? It does't grant +25% in all cities for each Stele you've built. Which is basically my point, at 5 cities the proposed Qullqa is a modest +25% city connection gold scaling on five cities with what, maybe 10 or less population? At 10 it's +50%, but also scaling on the larger population of those cities, and at 20 it's +100%. Combine that with the new industrial city connections granting hammers. It seems like too much hidden power coming from an Ancient era building.

Anyway I just wanted to make a quick case in the main voting thread. I think you raise so valid concerns regarding early-game free production, and at the end of the day the Inca are overperforming other civs in general, so if anything they need fewer yields from their components, not more.

 

[azum4roll]

What do slower game speed have to create more land to claim?

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.