(8-23) 4UC Iroquois - Prowler: Replace Withdraw Before Melee and Indirect Fire

[ma_kuh]

Original Iroquois proposal:

[DLL] - (8-NS) 4UC Iroquois

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Iroquois civilization. The only change to the base kit is the addition of a UA bonus that helps generate more of the unique Great Diplomat

forums.civfanatics.com

Counter proposal: (changes in-line)

UM - Prowler (replaces Musketman):
available at Metallurgy
275 325 Production Cost (cost matches Musketman)
22 CS, 32 RCS
2 Range
2 Movement
"Can Move After Attacking"
"Infiltrators" (carried forward on upgrade)
"Withdraw Before Melee"
"Indirect Fire"
----------------
New flavor text:
"A nimble attacker that operates well alone. Only the Iroquois may build it. Starts with Can Move After Attacking and Infiltrators."

Reasoning:
The combination of Indirect Fire and Withdraw Before Melee is too strong. Currently Prowlers never need to step up to take shots, and if a Woodsman unit tries to engage on them they still take 0 retaliation damage as they auto-kite. Also, Indirect Fire allows Prowlers to circumvent Mountain walls, which isn't in theme for the unit.

Replacing these two promotions with Can Move After Attacking and Infiltrators keeps the idea and theme of the unit intact: step up with road-speed movement in the forest, take a shot, then disappear back into the forest. If you choose to try and root them out, finding them with a melee unit is actually rewarded, instead of punished, allowing for counter play of the unit. Forcing the Prowler to take more steps also allows for proper ZOCs to play a role in preventing retreat.

I think this also makes the unit more unique by hybridizing a skirmisher's shoot-and-scoot mobility with an archer's power. This is better than just "invincible forest archer".

 

[azum4roll]

It doesn't deserve to be 50 cheaper than Musketman. It's even cheaper than Tercio!

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Would removing the withdraw before melee suffice? I dont mind this change but it feels like humans are better at using move after attack than the AI, no?

 

[Anarcomu]

Indirect fire also allows you to fire through Mountains and hills, which the Prowler is not meant to represent. I like this proposal.

 

[ScarletArkyning]

I’m all for it. Iroquois are always curb stomping in my games. Usually if I see em I’ll restart

 

[pineappledan]

Doesn’t withdraw on attack get lost on upgrade? What will prowler carry forward?

 

[azum4roll]

Withdraw Before Melee doesn't. You're thinking of Commando.

Can Move After Attacking is lost though.

 

[ma_kuh]

What would you all say to adding Infiltrators, and removing the cost reduction to pay for the CS boost it gives? I could also see a dedicated new promo "Forest Prowler" or some such that gives Infiltrator-like bonuses and Can Move After Attacking, but that would be a much stronger ability to pull forward. I'll leave it to a secondary counter proposal to suggest that (since it also would require new art and text, which I'm not going to propose).

I'm not seeing a lot of direct references to "prowlers" related to Haudenosaunee/Iroquois beyond AoE 3, so I'm just guessing at thematic tie-ins beyond guerilla warfare against invading American settlement. It's not heartening that the AoE 3 "history" text opens with "the classic stereotype of the Iroquois...".

UPDATED PROPOSAL:
Added:
275 325 Production Cost (cost reverted to Musketman cost)
...
"Infiltrators" (carried forward on upgrade)

 

[ma_kuh]

Added an update to the flavor text for the unit, reflecting the changes in the proposal.

UPDATED PROPOSAL:
Added:
Old flavor text:
"A nimble attacker excelling in Rough Terrain. Only the Iroquois may build it. Cheaper than the Musketman, this Unit can attack from behind obstacles and withdraw from enemy attacks."

New flavor text:
"A nimble attacker that can move after attacking, with bonuses when attacking and operating alone. Only the Iroquois may build it. Starts with Infiltrators."

 

[hokath]

Nice idea to specify the text.
There are two texts you need to change.
Here is an example using our favourite UU

Spoiler :

So the Game Info just lists the differences to the base unit. So you would have like
"A nimble ranged unit attacker that operates well alone. Only the Iroquois may build it. Starts with Can Move After Attacking and Infiltrators."
Then the Strategy text suggests how to use the unit to its maximum effect. Here is the current text for the Prowler

Spoiler :

So it needs some changes to that first part.

 

[azum4roll]

You don't need to propose text. Sponsors are supposed to handle that in accordance with existing VP text.

 

[Recursive]

Sponsored.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.