(8-24) 4UC Japan

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Japanese civilization.

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Yamato Class (replaces Battleship)

available at Nuclear Fission​

2000 Production Cost (+200 more)​

65 CS, 80 RCS​

3 Range​

6 Movement​

"Taikan Kyohosyugi" (Unit gains Great Admiral Points on Kill)​

"Armor Plating I"​

600 GAP on Construction​

Enemies receive 400 Culture and 400 GAP for sinking a Yamato​

requires Iron​

UB - Kabuki Theater (replaces Opera House):

available at Acoustics​

600 Production Cost​

Requires an Amphitheater​

+5 Culture​

+5% Culture​

+33% Great Musician Points​

+1 Gold to all Musicians, Artists and Writers Guilds​

1 Great Work of Music Slot​

Great Works in City gain +1 Tourism​

50 Culture Whenever an Internal Trade Route To or From this city is completed, scaling with Era​

When a Great Musician is born in this City, Faith equal to your Tourism per turn as an instant yield​

When a Great Writer is born in this City, gain Gold equal to 5% of that Writer's potential Culture from Writing a Political Treatise​

When a Great Artist is born in this City, gain Science equal to 2% of that Artist's potential Golden Age Points from triggering a Golden Age​

 

[pineappledan]

Reserved

 

[Recursive]

The Dojo's Science and Culture yield has been increased to 140% of the XP, is that being reverted?

 

[pineappledan]

No, but I didn’t consider it material to the discussion.

 

[Stalker0]

3 range on a ship is just a mistake, we've been down that road before and its just too good. The rest of the stats I don't mind, the "bounty" bonus I don't think mechanically works. In human hands, you already have tons of incentive to not lose your units, and for a loser AI these just become yield pinatas.

On the kabuki house, that science bonus is too large, the GAP bonuses you can get from late game artists is kind of crazy. Like you can get 1000 science in EVERY city when an artist is made, that's actually stronger than a Great Scientist!

 

[azum4roll]

On the kabuki house, that science bonus is too large, the GAP bonuses you can get from late game artists is kind of crazy. Like you can get 1000 science in EVERY city when an artist is made, that's actually stronger than a Great Scientist!

Pretty sure the yield is only on the city the GP is born.

 

[pineappledan]

It's only in 1 city.

 

[Stalker0]

It's only in 1 city.

Ok probably want to add that in to description, but certainly brings the build more in line

 

[pineappledan]

3 range on a ship is just a mistake, we've been down that road before and its just too good. The rest of the stats I don't mind, the "bounty" bonus I don't think mechanically works. In human hands, you already have tons of incentive to not lose your units, and for a loser AI these just become yield pinatas.

I heartily disagree.
This is the single latest UU unlocked and it is the most powerful warship ever created. It is very much intended to be a game-ender; almost like a naval Giant Death Robot.
Land units have already had 3-4 range artillery for a full era when the Yamato unlocks. Cities have had 3 range for a long time as well. Comparing this unit's situation to something like the longbow is a distortion.
If anything, I would say increasing the range is the bare minimum if this UU is going to have any impact at that stage of the game. They have to contend with air units and all other manner of ways to mitigate the power of a ranged naval unit.

re: the yields, the thematic basis for the yields on kill and on death are ironclad. Even if the AI is somewhat spendthrift with its units, the Yamato has the tools it needs to be survivable and keep itself out of danger.

Ok probably want to add that in to description, but certainly brings the build more in line

done.

 

[Urzamax]

3 range on a ship is just a mistake, we've been down that road before and its just too good. The rest of the stats I don't mind, the "bounty" bonus I don't think mechanically works. In human hands, you already have tons of incentive to not lose your units, and for a loser AI these just become yield pinatas.

On the kabuki house, that science bonus is too large, the GAP bonuses you can get from late game artists is kind of crazy. Like you can get 1000 science in EVERY city when an artist is made, that's actually stronger than a Great Scientist!

If it was a Galleon or something sure, 3 range would be wild, but it's worth remembering that in addition to planes and artillery and cities having considerable range at this point, everything on the water is pretty fast in this era too.

 

[Stalker0]

I heartily disagree.
This is the single latest UU unlocked and it is the most powerful warship ever created. It is very much intended to be a game-ender; almost like a naval Giant Death Robot.
Land units have already had 3-4 range artillery for a full era when the Yamato unlocks. Cities have had 3 range for a long time as well. Comparing this unit's situation to something like the longbow is a distortion.
If anything, I would say increasing the range is the bare minimum if this UU is going to have any impact at that stage of the game. They have to contend with air units and all other manner of ways to mitigate the power of a ranged naval unit.

re: the yields, the thematic basis for the yields on kill and on death are ironclad. Even if the AI is somewhat spendthrift with its units, the Yamato has the tools it needs to be survivable and keep itself out of danger.

done.

I am a bit worried about a unit that can attack two tiles inland (assuming it can?), but I will admit it might be an overreaction, as you say there are a lot more counters available at this point than a range 3 archer unit many eras previously.

 

[azum4roll]

I question the necessity of a bounty. It's really easy to sink them with submarines/planes since AI just sucks at protecting their ranged ships.

 

[pineappledan]

I am a bit worried about a unit that can attack two tiles inland (assuming it can?), but I will admit it might be an overreaction, as you say there are a lot more counters available at this point than a range 3 archer unit many eras previously.

All battleships have indirect fire innately, so they can hit 2-3 tiles inland.

 

[notque]

I've played a tremendous number of Japan games. I never even build the Yamato as the game is usually decided at that point. Curious it's a big discussion, I think these late UU's shouldn't even exist, but perhaps I'm wrong there.

Otherwise, I'd just say in general that Japan's extras feel very consolidated in the same area, which makes it a bit challenging versus other civs, because it has to pick a lane, and do everything at the same time.

Not that I mind it, I play it a lot, but if there was one thing I'd try to improve is spreading them out a bit over the tech timeline. Japan has had a long history.

This is just feel from a person who loves playing Japan, and shouldn't be taken too seriously as a technical proposal. Just thoughts.

 

[pineappledan]

Otherwise, I'd just say in general that Japan's extras feel very consolidated in the same area, which makes it a bit challenging versus other civs, because it has to pick a lane, and do everything at the same time.

Isn’t this mostly base VP’s fault for having Japan’s 2 components unlock at steel?

Kabuki unlocks 1.5 eras later and Yamato unlocks in Atomic, 3 eras after That. It has one of the biggest spreads of any civ, just nothing before medieval.

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: A
This is another case where I feel the 4UC components do a better job of portraying real Japanese history than the base components. The Dojo and Samurai, while they work very well with the VP kit, are flattened, essentialized and radically distorted versions of the real historical thing they are meant to portray and I think the 4UC components stack up very well compared to them.

Yamato
Theme - A. This unit was consciously designed as a synecdoche for the Japanese empire by the real life Japanese Admiralty. It is the most powerful warship ever constructed. This unit was made to be in civ.
Mechanics - A. Its position on the tech tree and the sheer power of the unit are intended as a game-ending super-unit in the vein of a naval giant death robot. The Yields on construction and yields on kill that it bestows to the enemy are symbolic of the Yamato’s poetic and nationalistic import, how the empire deliberately set the Yamato as a personification of the Empire.
Uniqueness - S. The strongest and best battleship ever to be created has no equal or even pretenders. It’s the kind of historical unit that feels as though it was asking to be made into a video game.

Kabuki
Theme - B. The UB is a reference to low art and culture in Sengoku era Japan.
Mechanics - A. The culture on internal trade route completion is a reference to Sakoku, giving an incentive for Japan to forego international trade in favor of internal trade. The bonuses on great Writer/Artist/Musician birth are a reference to the flowering of a distinct Japanese identity in these times of isolation. It also synergizes with the GWAM generated by the UA nicely.
Uniqueness - B. There is 1 other Unique Opera House, the Sambadrome. However, the Sambadrome sucks and the Kabuki rocks.

 

[halcyon.plus]

Can Yamato's range be changed to 3 with a "Range" promotion?

[Reason]
When Yamato first appeared in 4UC, the ultimate naval ranged unit was the Battleship.
Then, Missile Cruiser were incorporated, and Battleship became upgradeable.
When Yamato was upgraded to a Missile Cruiser, the range was reduced to 2.

I think one of the attractions of VoxPopuli is that
"the upgraded unit can inherit the promotion of the UU".

Since automatic translation is used, some expressions may be incorrect.
I apologize in advance.

 

[azum4roll]

I think one of the attractions of VoxPopuli is that
"the upgraded unit can inherit the promotion of the UU".

Yes, but not everything.

I have a feeling that this UU isn't supposed to be upgraded, with it essentially being already better than a Missile Cruiser.

 

[pineappledan]

If we give it range then you can’t get more XP and pick range and have 4 range.

The unit already Carries forward armor plating and GAdmiral points on kill

 

[phantomaxl1207]

What is the rationale for Yamato having an obsolete tech?