[Vote] (8-24) Japan

[hokath]

Choose which components you want to see for the Japan!

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(8-24) 4UC Japan

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Japanese civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor(s): @axatin

New Unit - Yamato Class (replaces Battleship)
available at Nuclear Fission
2000 Production Cost (+200 more)
65 CS, 80 RCS
3 Range
6 Movement
"Taikan Kyohosyugi" (Unit gains Great Admiral Points on Kill)
"Armor Plating I"
600 GAP on Construction
Enemies receive 400 Culture and 400 GAP for sinking a Yamato
requires Iron

New Building - Kabuki Theater (replaces Opera House):
available at Acoustics
600 Production Cost
Requires an Amphitheater
+5 Culture
+5% Culture
+33% Great Musician Points
+1 Gold to all Musicians, Artists and Writers Guilds
1 Great Work of Music Slot
Great Works in City gain +1 Tourism
50 Culture Whenever an Internal Trade Route To or From this city is completed, scaling with Era
When a Great Musician is born in this City, Faith equal to your Tourism per turn as an instant yield
When a Great Writer is born in this City, gain Gold equal to 5% of that Writer's potential Culture from Writing a Political Treatise
When a Great Artist is born in this City, gain Science equal to 2% of that Artist's potential Golden Age Points from triggering a Golden Age

No changes but for reference because there are lots of variation below:
Old Building - Dojo

Old Unit - Samurai

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(8-24a) 4UC Japan - Less Katanas, More Reworks

Current : See pineappledan's recap of the current 4UC version for Japan here. Proposal : - Move a part of the Dojo unique promotion to the UA (return to base Civ V) UA - Shogunate +1 :c5culture: Culture and :c5faith: Faith from Defense Buildings. When a :c5greatperson: Great General or Great...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @Hinin
Sponsor(s): @axatin

UA Change - +1 Culture and Faith from Defense Buildings. When a Great General or Great Admiral is born, gain 50% progress towards a Great Artist, Writer and Musician in your Capital. Units always fight at full strength when wounded.

New Building - Kabuki Theater :
- replaces the bonus Culture from internal Trade Routes with "Gain Culture from Experience gained in Combat for Units born in the City" ;
- change the bonus from Great Musician birth to "Gain Production equal to a value increased by the number of Great Works of Music in the Empire".
Formula : Production gained = 75 + 75 x number of GWMusic in Empire.

New Unit - Yamato from base proposal

Old Unit - Kondei (replaces Heavy Skirmisher)

Unlocked at Physics
175 Production / 300 Faith cost
Unlocked at Physics
Requires Horse
17 CS / 17 RCS / 1 Range (+0 / +3 / +0)
5 MP / 2 Vision
Great General II
Kobudo (dummy promotion) - Can fortify and benefit from Terrain Defensive bonuses. Has no Attack malus against Cities and Naval Units. Lost upon upgrade.
Can move after attacking
Skirmisher Doctrine
Cannot melee attack
Attack malus against Naval Units
Attack malus against Cities
No Terrain Defense

Old Building -> Improvement - Torii

Can be built by expending a Great Writer / Great Artist / Great Musician
Can be built on Land and Coastal tiles, and not next to another Torii
3 Culture / 3 Faith / 3 Tourism
+1 Culture per Building providing Merchant specialists in the City (Market / Customs House / Bank / Stock Exchange)
+1 Faith per Building providing Engineer specialists in the City (Forge / Workshop / Windmill / Factory / Coaling Station)
+1 Tourism per Building providing Scientist specialists in the City (Library / University / Observatory / Public School / Research Lab)
Has no technology bonus

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(8-24b) 4UC Japanese Medley Proposal

Proposal : - Move a part of the Dojo unique promotion to the UA (return to base Civ V) UA - Bakufu +1 :c5culture: Culture and :c5faith: Faith from Defense Buildings. When a :c5greatperson: Great General or Great Admiral is born, gain 50% progress towards a :c5greatperson: Great Artist, Writer...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @Pipiskus
Sponsor(s): @axatin

UA Change "Bakufu": +1 Culture and Faith from Defense Buildings. When a Great General or Great Admiral is born, gain 50% progress towards a Great Artist, Writer and Musician in your Capital. Units always fight at full strength.

New Improvement - Torii
Can be built by expending a Great Writer / Artist / Musician
Can be built on Land and Coastal tiles
6 Culture, 6 Tourism, 1 Faith
+1Culture, 1 Tourism, and 1 Faith for each adjacent Mountain
+3 Culture at Drama and Poetry
+3 Tourism, 1 Faith at Guilds
+3 Culture, 3 Tourism at Acoustics
+3Culture, 3Faith at Radio
All GPTI and Unique Improvement Bonuses from policies and buildings apply

New Unit - Yamato from base proposal

Old Building - Dojo
Remove 8 Bushido Promotions
Gain 50 in city whenever an internal Trade Route to or from this city is completed, scaling with era

Old Unit - Kondei (replaces Heavy Skirmisher)
Unlocked at Physics
175 Production / 300Faith cost
Requires 1 Horse
Mounted
19 CS / 15 RCS / 1 Range (+1 / +1 / +0)
5 MP / 2 Vision
Great General II
Kobudo (dummy promotion) - Can fortify and benefit from Terrain Defensive bonuses. Has no Attack malus against Cities and Naval Units. Lost upon upgrade.
Can move after attacking
Skirmisher Doctrine
Cannot melee attack
Attack malus against Naval Units
Attack malus against Cities
No Terrain Defense

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(8-24c) 4UC Japan - Changes To Base Components, New Tatara UB (Dojo Replacement)

Original proposal: (8-24) 4UC Japan Incompatible with: (8-24a) 4UC Japan - Less katanas, more reworks (8-24b) Japanese medley proposal (8-24d) Japan: just Kondei + Torii, change nothing else Proposal UA receives the following adjustments: Loses the "+1 :c5culture: Culture and +1 :c5faith...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @Legen
Sponsor(s): @axatin

UA Change: Melee attacking Land Units start with the Eight Virtues of Bushido promotion. When a Great Engineer, General or Admiral is born, gain 34% progress toward a Great Writer, Artist and Musician in your Capital.
Eight Virtues of Bushido -- loses the 10 HP heal on kill; the valid classes for "melee attacking" are: Recon, Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted Melee, Armor

New Building - Kabuki Theatre from base proposal

New Unit - Yamato from base proposal

Old Building - Tatara (replaces Forge):
Unlocked at Bronze Working
Cost: 110
Maintenance: -1
Iron: +1
+2 Culture and +2 Science (from +1 Science)
+1 Culture and +1 Production from Engineers in the City.
2 Engineer slots (from 1)
Unlocks access to 3 variations of Hokora, an inexpensive building with 2 slots for a certain type of Great Work.
Nearby Iron: +1 Production, +1 Gold
Nearby Copper: +2 Gold
+1 Production from Mines worked by this City.

Spoiler :

Hokora (writing)
1 of 3 Mutually Exclusive Unique Japanese Buildings.
Cost: 10
Contains 2 slots for Great Works of Writing. +4 Faith if Themed.
Hokora (art)
1 of 3 Mutually Exclusive Unique Japanese Buildings.
Cost: 10
Contains 2 slots for Great Works of Art or Artifacts. +4 Faith if Themed.
Hokora (music)
1 of 3 Mutually Exclusive Unique Japanese Buildings.
Cost: 10
Contains 2 slots for Great Works of Music. +4 Faith if Themed.

Theming requires 2 Works of the same type and from your Civilization, any Era.
+4 base theming bonus

Old Unit - Samurai (replaces Longswordman)
Unlocked at Steel
Obsoletes at Rifling
Cost: 160
25 CS (from 22 )
Movement: 2
Discipline
Quick Study (+50% XP from combat)
Great Generals II (+100% Great General Points from combat)
Warrior Poet (When this Unit gains Experience through combat, receive Science and Culture equal to 140% of the gained Experience)
requires Iron

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(8-24d) 4UC Japan: Just Kondei + Torii, Change Nothing Else

Links: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-24-4uc-japan.690030/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-24a-4uc-japan-less-katanas-more-reworks.690520/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-24b-japanese-medley-proposal.690810/...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @axatin

New Improvement - Torii
Can be built by Great Writer, Great Artist, and Great Musician
Can be built on resources and connects them
Removes features (Jungle, Forest, Marsh)
+5 +1 +3
+1 +1 +1 for every adjacent Mountain
Drama and Poetry: +3 +2
Theology: +1 +1 +1
Acoustics: +1 +2
Archaeology: +2 +4
Radio: +5 +5 +1 +9
Civil Society: +4
Five-Year Plan: +3
Military-Industrial Complex: +3
New Deal: +6

New Unit - Yamato from base proposal

Old Unit - Kondei
Unlocked at Physics
Standard costs
Requires 1 Horse
17 15 (+1)
No Defensive Terrain Bonuses
Can Move After Attacking
City Attack Penalty
Naval Target Penalty
Skirmisher Doctrine
Great Generals II (Generates 100% more Great General Points from combat.)

 

[hokath]

MAGI: Soul of the Samurai name changed to Warrior Poet to be more historically palatable. At the request of the author.

 

[hokath]

@azum4roll It is intentional that your Torii cannot be built on coast, right?

I am drawn to option b) or d)
I'm not a huge fan of the Kabuki Theatre bonuses.

c) is an interesting direction on Engineers, but I suspect the Eight Virtues -- though nerfed -- will make this a very strong ancient era rushing civ, and I think we have enough of them.

 

[azum4roll]

I didn't notice the "can be built on coast" part. I'd say no to it since it's always better to put them there. And it may or may not allow lakes, which is a big no.

 

[msw1]

I like the idea of the Torii but I think (b) or (d) get it right. The version in (a) is way too weak. When you consider Artistry, theming bonuses, and the fact that great works don't require citizens to work a tile, I can't imagine ever picking the Torii in (a) over a great work.

 

[Sassy1]

Historicity aside, it would be sad to see the Samurai go. Definitely one of the more fun unique units.

 

[Legen]

I like the idea of the Torii but I think (b) or (d) get it right. The version in (a) is way too weak. When you consider Artistry, theming bonuses, and the fact that great works don't require citizens to work a tile, I can't imagine ever picking the Torii in (a) over a great work.

I think even the Torii at (d), which has the most aggressive scaling, is way too weak.

The problem is that it isn't enough for the Torii to scale based on how the great works do, the Torii also needs to scale based on other improvements/specialists on top of that, as you need to relocate a citizen to work on the Torii instead. And this alone can make the Torii provide less yields than a regular great work + improvement/specialist. For instance, a Farm at Fertilizer (with Agribusiness) adds +7 yields to the tile, before accounting for fresh water and adjacency bonuses, as follows:

Base: +1
Civil Service: +1
Fertilizer: +1
Agribusiness: +2 gold and +2 production

Similarly, an Engineer at Industrialization grants +9 Production and +3 GPP, before accounting for +X% GPP bonuses and Food consumption per era, as follows:

Base: +4 3
Engineering: +1
Metal Casting: +1
Machinery: +1
Industrialization: +2

It's worse if comparing with regular GPTIs:

Manufactory
Base: +6
Tech: +9 (Metal Casting, Fertilizer, Combined Arms)
Factory: +2

Academy
Base: +6
Tech: +12 (Physics, Scientific Theory, Rocketry, Nuclear Fission)
Research Lab: +4

Town
Base: +9 total (+2 food, +6 gold, +1 culture)
Tech: +13 (Banking, Architecture, Railroad, Refrigeration)
Stock Exchange: +2
Road/Railroad: +2/+4 gold and +2/+4 production
Trade Route passing on tile: +2 gold and +2 production before Industrial Era, +4 at and after.

Holy Site
Base: +12 total (+5 culture, +4 Faith, +3 Tourism)
Tech: +12 (Acoustics, Archaeology, Flight)
Reformation National Wonder: +5

And the comparison with regular GPTIs isn't a worst case scenario, since allocating multiple citizens to work on Torii likely means your cities won't have enough population to work on Merchants, Engineers and Scientists to generate their GPTIs. Relative to simply creating great works, the Torii will likely come at some cost of your infrastructure specialists and regular GPTIs.

The Torii doesn't boost your cultural GPs bulbing either, unlike the great works the Torii tries to replace, so you're left with weaker cultural GPs for every Torii you make over creating a great work. I think this will make the Torii an unfun component once people realize that Japan could end with Great Writers and Artists bulbing for maybe half or so of what a generic civ usually bulbs theirs, if you keep making as many Torii as you would make any other UI.

Overall, I suspect the Torii in the related proposals is not better than simply creating great works, which effectively leaves Japan with one less UC relative to other civs.

EDIT: I forgot to add Town's yields from Road/Railroad and from having a trade route passing on it. Fixed now.

 

[azum4roll]

Historicity aside, it would be sad to see the Samurai go. Definitely one of the more fun unique units.

The fun part is on the eight virtues. The unit itself isn't any special.

 

[gwennog]

The fun part is on the eight virtues. The unit itself isn't any special.

You forgot the 3Dmodel, very fun too, and the flag too. I will be really disappointed not to see it on the map anymore.

 

[Legen]

The fun part is on the eight virtues. The unit itself isn't any special.

The Samurai is the basis on many mechanics that Japan got in VP, and Japan's kit mainly revolves around synergizing with this unit. The GWAM from generating Great Generals and the Dojo's yields from experience are related to the Samurai's promotions, Great Generals II and Quick Study.

The Samurai's melee role is also the one that most benefits from the "fight with additional strength when wounded" ability, which in turn lets the Samurai fight for longer before needing to retreat to heal. This role is also the most synergistic with both earning experience and GGP, since melee combat earns 4 (defending) or 5 (attacking) points, in contrast to ranged combat earning 2 instead.

 

[gwennog]

Hi @Legen ,

I'm not sure if you have an Icon (not found in the messages), if that would be okay in case your proposition goes through.

 

[Legen]

@gwennog It's not ideal, I imagine the Tatara's icon to be like this:

And the Hokora variations to be similar to these (with noticeable color variations for easy selection):

I wouldn't say these count as icons, since I've seen people complain about compliance with VP style in other posts when the image is from a photo. I'm not familiar with tools to stylize them.

 

[gwennog]

It's not ideal, I imagine the Tatara's icon to be like this:

I wouldn't say these count as icons, since I've seen people complain about compliance with VP style in other posts when the image is from a photo. I'm not familiar with tools to stylize them.

Yes, I suggested this icon because I couldn't find an editable oven photo that would look good. I don't think it's appropriate to include photos in VP for icons.

 

[FinMc]

You forgot the 3Dmodel, very fun too, and the flag too. I will be really disappointed not to see it on the map anymore.

Japan with no Samurai is so sad

 

[Legen]

I think people are underestimating the drawbacks of the Torii, which make it overall worse than simply creating a great work. My opinion is that the Torii proposals are effectively 3UC proposals, if not 2UC.

The most obvious issue is the lack of GWAM bulbing scaling. Every great work boosts Writer bulbing by 3%, and every theming boosts Artist bulbing by 10%. If you make 30 Torii, that's a loss of a +90% modifier on Great Writers and up to a loss of a +150% modifier on Great Artists. It's very unlikely that the yields on the Torii, even on proposal (d), can make up for the lost yields of bulbing even a single Writer, much less 3 or more in the late game, when their bulb is in the order of tens of thousands of culture. This alone is enough to call the Torii worse than the base component it's supposed to supplant.

As if it weren't enough, this lack of bulb scaling also sabotages the Yamato. For those that never played with her, one of Yamato's most impactful features is her "Taikan Kyohosyugi" promotion, which grants 400% of the killed naval enemy's CS as Great Admiral Points. In a stage of the game in which naval units are at least 65 CS, she provides a sudden burst of Admirals and, consequently, GWAM people, which can be bulbed for massive yields to close the game. This is impactful enough to justify her as an UU with a very late placement in the tech tree. Placing multiple Torii, however, results in anemic GWAM bulbing, robbing Yamato of much of her potential, and her justification as the latest unlocked unique component in the game. This makes the Torii an anti 4UC integration for Japan.

Of course, it wasn't the intention of those that proposed the Torii, but it is almost as if the Torii was meant to keep Japan stuck with only 2 components, while every other civ plays with 4.

 

[pineappledan]

My opinion on this Japan vote is that we have only 2 options: (8-24) and (8-24d).
The Kondei has no acceptable unit model while the Tartara and its 3 shrines have no icons. By the definition of what makes a sponsored proposal, 8-24c has failed to attract the necessary implementation resources and this is grounds for a veto.
This proposal can be considered at a later time when it has the necessary support.

The most obvious issue is the lack of GWAM bulbing scaling. Every great work boosts Writer bulbing by 3%, and every theming boosts Artist bulbing by 10%. If you make 30 Torii, that's a loss of a +90% modifier on Great Writers and up to a loss of a +150% modifier on Great Artists. It's very unlikely that the yields on the Torii, even on proposal (d), can make up for the lost yields of bulbing even a single Writer, much less 3 or more in the late game, when their bulb is in the order of tens of thousands of culture. This alone is enough to call the Torii worse than the base component it's supposed to supplant.

This is a very reasonable criticism. I think it's fair to say that while adding yields to the Torii can compensate for the lack of theme benefits, it cannot replace the bulb scaling. The Torii needs to provide bulb scaling in order to be viable.

Neither of the Torii proposals actually provide GP bulb scaling, but adding this for the GArtist/GWriter/GMusician would be easier than the new code needed for the Kabuki's unique instant yields that scale off these 3 bulbs. There is also clear precedent for GP bulb scaling from GPTIs, and the Oppidum in particular, which grants half-power bulb scaling to 3 GP types. It seems very doable, but also more consistent than other proposals given here.

Also, bulb scaling on the Torii wouldn't be the umpteenth instant yields from GP birth ability, just with slightly different scaling. That is a major selling point vs the Kabuki in my books.

 

[Hinin]

The Kondei has no acceptable unit model

The Kondei has a unit 3d model that is present in the Sengoku modpack currently in the modmod subforum. It was clearly described within my original proposal.

In any case, the proposal (8-24d) also contains the Kondei, so should we remove it too and make (8-24) winner by default if we follow your logic ?

 

[gwennog]

while the Tartara and its 3 shrines have no icons.

If the proposal passes, I will work on making 4 icons for the Tatara and the Hokora.

 

[pineappledan]

The Kondei has a unit 3d model that is present in the Sengoku modpack currently in the modmod subforum. It was clearly described within my original proposal.

In any case, the proposal (8-24d) also contains the Kondei, so should we remove it too and make (8-24) winner by default if we follow your logic ?

So it is, I retract my statement re: the Kondei

 

[pineappledan]

If the proposal passes, I will work on making 4 icons for the Tatara and the Hokora.

That is not acceptable.
Voters need to be able to see all parts of the thing they are voting on. It is not enough to say that something will exist AFTER people agree to it; what the Tartara and the 3 shrines look like is relevant information.