[Vote] (8-37) Shoshone

[hokath]

Choose which components you want to see for the Shoshone!

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(8-37) 4UC Shoshone

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Shoshoni civilization. Unlike other threads, the Shoshone are due to go through a rework, so I cannot post a preview of the new base VP kit

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor(s): @axatin

New Unit - Yellow Brow (replaces Tercio):
Available at Gunpowder
300 Production Cost
27 CS
2 Movement
"Big Horse Dance" (Fights Better when damaged. Defense Bonus when fortified is doubled)
"Formation I"
"Discipline"

New Building - Buffalo Pound (replaces Well/Watermill):
Available at Military Strategy (1 tech later than Well, but 1 tech before Water Mill)
110 Production Cost
1 Gold Maintenance
can be built anywhere
+3 Food and +3 Production
+1 Food and +1 Production for every 4 Citizens
+1 to Sheep, Cattle, Deer and Bison
+1 Gold for each Encampment on a tile owned by this City

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(8-37a) 4UC Shoshone: Buffalo Pound Changes

Links: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-37-4uc-shoshone.690045/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-37a-shoshone-buffalo-pound-alternative-buff.690300/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-37b-4uc-shoshone-replace-ancient-ruins-choice-with-more-ruins.690566/ UB - Buffalo Pound...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @axatin

New Unit - Yellow Brow from base proposal

New Building - Buffalo Pound (replaces Well, blocks Water Mill)
Unlocks at Trapping
Can be built anywhere
65
1 Maintenance
+1 +2
+1 Production for every 5 Citizens in the City
+1 Food and +1 Production for every 6 tiles owned by the City

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(8-37b) 4UC Shoshone Buffalo Pound Alternative/Buff

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-37-4uc-shoshone.690045/ With or without 4UC I think that the Shoshone are underpowered (bottom 5 in AI games). The buffed UA will help but I don't think it will be sufficient on its own, therefore I propose buffing the UB in a way that further emphasizes...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @EndGoodSmith
Sponser: @axatin

New Unit - Yellow Brow from base proposal

New Building - Buffalo Pound (replaces Well/Watermill):
Available at Military Strategy
can be built anywhere
110 Production Cost
1 Gold Maintenance
+2 Food and +3 Production
+1 Food for every 4 tiles owned by this City
+1 Production for every 4 Citizens
+1 Gold from Camps and Pastures.

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(8-37c) Shoshone: Buffalo Pound Changes

Links: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-37-4uc-shoshone.690045/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-37a-shoshone-buffalo-pound-alternative-buff.690300/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-37b-4uc-shoshone-replace-ancient-ruins-choice-with-more-ruins.690566/...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @gwennog
Sponsor: @axatin

New Unit - Yellow Brow from base proposal

New Building - Buffalo Pound (replaces Smokehouse)
Unlocks at Trapping
65
1 Maintenance
+2 Border growth points
Spawn 2 bisons
Gain 5 and Border growth points in the City when its borders expand, scaling with Era
+1 Food, Gold, and Production from Encampments, Camps and Pastures worked by this City.
Magi: Note the alternative wording
+1 Food on nearby Deer and Bison

 

[hokath]

@gwennog is the +1 / / for these three improvements respectively?
I.e. should it read Encampments/Camps/Pastures kinda?

 

[gwennog]

is the +1 / / for these three improvements respectively?

The bonus is the 3 yields on the three improvements. The building starts weaker than the others offered but increases in power as the workers work.

 

[hokath]

Right so I could also write it out in full as
+1 food from encampment
+1 gold from camp
+1 production from pasture

 

[gwennog]

Right so I could also write it out in full as
+1 food from encampment
+1 gold from camp
+1 production from pasture

In fact no, the proposition is :
+1 / / from encampment
+1 / / from camp
+1 / / from pasture

 

[pineappledan]

That is an absolutely absurd amount of yields for something that unlocks in ancient. For context, India’s UB boosts 1 improvement type by 2 yields.

Edit: wait, did 37c actually get sponsored by @axatin? There is not an indication in the archived thread that it did. The bison spawning ability requires new code; it can’t work off the existing resource plopper from the Indonesian Candi.

 

[gwennog]

That is an absolutely absurd amount of yields for something that unlocks in ancient. For context, India’s UB boosts 1 improvement type by 2 yields.

I don't really understand your thinking, you are proposing a base bonus of +3 Food and +3 Production, which in my proposal is equivalent to 3 Improvements already worked on. I'm not sure that the absurdity is there where you see it .
In fact, the building starts in the Ancien era but acquires its bonuses as it goes. In your proposal, a large part of the bonuses are given directly at the beginning. In the end, I don't think it's exaggerated (or absurd)

 

[gwennog]

The bison spawning ability requires new code; it can’t work off the existing resource plopper from the Indonesian Candi.

I checked, I use it for the Tehuelches mod to spawn Horses and it works perfectly.

 

[Rekk]

I don't really understand your thinking, you are proposing a base bonus of +3 Food and +3 Production, which in my proposal is equivalent to 3 Improvements already worked on. I'm not sure that the absurdity is there where you see it .
In fact, the building starts in the Ancien era but acquires its bonuses as it goes. In your proposal, a large part of the bonuses are given directly at the beginning. In the end, I don't think it's exaggerated (or absurd)

3 Improvements on your building will be 3 Food 3 Production 3 Gold, and you provide two resources for improvement on the same tech as it (tier 1 ancient). It scales incredibly fast from there. The original proposal starts at 6 yields, but is a tech tier later whose base building has 3 of those yields, and requires certain resources or encampments (which are on a different tech tier) to slowly scale further.

 

[gwennog]

3 Improvements on your building will be 3 Food 3 Production 3 Gold, and you provide two resources to improve with an improvement on the same tech as it (tier 1 ancient). It scales incredibly fast from there.

It is possible, maybe the proposal is a bit strong but I prefer this mechanism than the others proposed. If it turns out to be too powerful it will always be possible to modify it at a future congress. Honestly, if this is the only balance problem when integrating MUCfVP, then we can pop the champagne

 

[hokath]

Oh no. +3 is far too strong.
Imagine, you don't even work the tiles to get the bonus! And you spawn 2 guys to immediately improve!!
Stables is what, +2 to pastures? and that's already really strong for a medieval building.

I think we should really abuse the ambiguity here and agree this number is +1. I worry people have already voted assuming that (so we would have to redo the vote even... )

 

[gwennog]

Imagine, you don't even work the tiles to get the bonus! And you spawn 2 guys to immediately improve!!

Well no, you have to build the improvements and have them exploited by the city to get the bonus.

Stables is what, +2 to pastures?

+2 Production to Horses, Cattle and Sheep, no need to improve.

I think we should really abuse the ambiguity here and agree this number is +1. I worry people have already voted assuming that (so we would have to redo the vote even... )

I'm not going to cheat (Other people who made propositions worked on it), if my proposal is completely OP that it can't be adopted or it was misinterpreted, people can change their vote. Personally I would like a Buffalo Pound that spawn Bison, if the bonuses prove too strong, I'll be the first to propose an improvement at the next congress.

 

[hokath]

Oh goodness, you are confusing me!

Well no, you have to build the improvements and have them exploited by the city to get the bonus.

Are you saying you meant an improvement boost, like the way Smokehouse gives +1 to Camps?

The original wording of

+1 Gold for each Encampment on a tile owned by this City

refers to improvements that do not have to be worked, and you've used the same wording.

Which one did you mean?

 

[gwennog]

Which one did you mean?

OK, difficult communication so I went to look up the exact VP terminology .
+1 Food, +1 Gold and +1 Production from Camps, Pastures and Encampments

with the Building_ImprovementYieldChanges table.

 

[gwennog]

@hokath , could you change the terminology I used in the presentation to make it clearer for everyone. I will be more careful in the future.

 

[pineappledan]

The OP has been edited. This proposal is still completely over the top.

1. The numbers are too big
   • This UB unlocks on a prerequisite tech to the encampment, so you are almost guaranteed to have built it before you unlock encampments.
     • Encampents give 2 11 on the tile. Already quite strong for an ancient improvement
     • The UB adds +1 to the encampment for a total of 2221 on the tile. a total of 7 yields on any flat tile in ancient era.
     • Even if we agreed that encampment's base yields were low (they aren't), why aren't these yields just on the UI itself? Putting them on the UB is needlessly convoluted
   • the UB gives +1to nearby camps and pastures, AND it gives 2 guaranteed camp resources.
     • So, in addition to the base yields, tech and policy boost potential, etc etc of the camps themselves, the UB also gives a guaranteed +2 in addition to any pre-existing camp and pasture resources.
     • That. Is. Nuts. For context, India has a UB that boosts 1 improvement by +1 that unlocks 3 tech tiers later and that UB is considered respectably strong. This is a ludicrous amount of raw yields and way too early.
2. The base building and tech are overoptimized
   • The building is directly in the unlock path of the encampment. With only 3 techs, Shoshone will have unlocked all of their unique civilian bonuses for the rest of the game.
   • The Shoshone game plan is always to tech to trade now, and ignore everything else around it. Resources etc don't matter. In fact revealing them will just get in the way of your +7(!) yield ancient UI
   • The end result of moving the shoshone UB to Trapping will be to make every Shoshone game play out the same way. Rush Trade and delay the resource reveal techs as long as possible. That sucks.
3. We tried the resource spawning for years and no one actually liked it in practice
   • Citing that the new buffalo pound drops the free bison spawn on construction ignores that fact that literally no one liked the free bison spawn on construction.
   • Prior to this integration vote, the Buffalo Pound had existed for 6 years as a UB that plopped a bison resource on construction. In all that time I don't recall a single kind word said about the building. Very few expressed outright disdain for it (though there was some), but no one liked it.
   • I conclude from this that people voting to keep the bison resource like the Concept of the building spawning bison, but haven't tried this building for themselves. The resource plopper had its chance. It had years to prove to me that it was worth keeping. It is not worth keeping.
4. This is the only proposal that doesn't address the real hole in the Shoshone's existing kit
   • All other proposals give some sort of bonus for tiles owned or per improvement owned, regardless of distance or if it is being worked
   • These mechanics would address Shoshone's current situation, where their borders quickly grow outside working range, and they have little incentive to improve land outside the 3-tile working radius.

 

[gwennog]

That. Is. Nuts. For context, India has a UB that boosts 1 improvement by +1 that unlocks 3 tech tiers later and that UB is considered respectably strong. This is a ludicrous amount of raw yields and way too early.

You forget to say that the Harappan Reservoir has other bonuses compared to its base building, which is not the case with my proposal (except bison spawn, of course)

The UB adds +1 to the encampment for a total of 2221 on the tile. a total of 7 yields on any flat tile in ancient era.

On this point I agree with you and if I have the right to modify my proposal, I would remove the bonus on encampments.

This is the only proposal that doesn't address the real hole in the Shoshone's existing kit

• All other proposals give some sort of bonus for tiles owned or per improvement owned, regardless of distance or if it is being worked
• These mechanics would address Shoshone's current situation, where their borders quickly grow outside working range, and they have little incentive to improve land outside the 3-tile working radius.

Precisely the mechanics that I propose will require to access the bonuses to improve them, they will not be "free" and this compensates for the rapid push of the Shoshone borders. The resources are there but the bonuses will come from choosing what is worked on.

 

[gwennog]

OK, after careful consideration and a lot of argument from Pinappledan , I think my proposal is not well thought out since I am already proposing to lower some things.
I really think that bringing bison with a Buffalo pound is interesting but other things in the kit should be changed to bring more synergy, otherwise it is just a gimmick.
If I want to give pride of place to the Bison, I will make a mod on the Sioux civilization .
If other people have arguments to defend my proposal, say it on the forum, otherwise, @hokath , can you withdraw it (I don't know if it's feasible and legal?)
Thanks for voting for it though.

 

[hokath]

I think it's probably legal under the
"Unclear Proposals At Voting Time"
clause of the rules.

 

[gwennog]

I think it's probably legal under the
"Unclear Proposals At Voting Time"
clause of the rules.

Hi @hokath ,

I think you can remove it now, it will prevent it from winning .