(8-38) 4UC Siam

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Siamese civilization.

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Seir Morb (replaces Field Gun - Howitzer in EE):

Available at Rifling​

900 Production Cost​

19 CS, 45 RCS​

2 Movement​

"Coastal Artillery" (+50% CS/RCS vs Naval Units)​

"Crouching Tiger" (15 bonus damage on attack if the unit has not moved this turn; lost on upgrade)​

"Cover I"​

no "City Bonus"​

Requires Iron​

UB - Elephant Camp (replaces Workshop):

Available at Civil Service​

350 Production Cost​

4 Gold maintenance​

1 Engineer Specialist Slot​

+3 Production, +2 Culture and +1 Faith​

+1 Production for every 4 Citizens​

+1 Production to Forest​

+1 Culture to Lumber Mills​

+1 Production and +1 Gold in city for every 2 Strategic resources gifted by City-States​

Receive 10 Production and 10 Culture every time a City-State gifts a unit, scaling with Era​

Allows Production to be moved from this city along Trade Routes inside your civilization​

+4 Production to Internal Trade Route from this city​

UA change:
changed "Leader_Flavor" value for "Defense" to 8
Add Forest/Jungle Start bias

Note: the picture description does not list the coastal artillery promotion in the seir morb description. This is because the promotion does not yet exist, and will be implemented in the upcoming version

 

[pineappledan]

Reserved

 

[azum4roll]

Seir Morb seems to be another one of those units whose full potential is on its upgrade. When upgrade to Artillery, it gets range 3 AND Siege Engine back, while retaining the bonus damage.

 

[pineappledan]

The bonus damage if not moving thing is lost on upgrade.

 

[Recursive]

Coastal Artillery is currently +50% not +33%.

 

[Stalker0]

the coastal defense feels like too thin of a unique for a UU. That said, the unit graphic says you get bonus damage to all units and cities on a tile. Does that mean:

1) I always do 15 damage to a city in addition to normal damage if I don't move? (the unit description doesn't mention cities which is why I ask).
2) Does this unit hit the garrison AND the city together? (doing 15 damage to both).

If any of the answers to these is yes than its still a pretty powerful city hitter even without the city bonus, though it might be too weak to hold up to city + garrison attacks.

 

[pineappledan]

It does not do bonus damage to cities but hits every unit for 15 damage stacked into a target tile. This includes embarked units underneath a boat, civilians stacked under a military unit, and garrisons inside cities.

 

[Stalker0]

It does not do bonus damage to cities but hits every unit for 15 damage stacked into a target tile. This includes embarked units underneath a boat, civilians stacked under a military unit, and garrisons inside cities.

Ok so it should be fine on offense then even with weaker city damage, killing the garrison quicker is a solid way to siege the city. Now its just a question of....does the unit without its city bonus die too quickly from city hits?

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: B
A strong and unique UU, but a thematically weak, and overly-complex UB. The Baan Chang is very powerful, but I feel it misses the mark and has too many things going on.

Sier Morb
Theme - C. It’s not a particularly noteworthy part of Siamese history and the unit did not, in fact, have much success in real life. The Sier Morb cannons failed to protect Bangkok from a French invasion, however they do bring in the aspect of a rapidly modernizing Thailand which I think is worth portraying.
Mechanics - A. The large incentive for attacking without moving is a very interesting and fun mechanic. It is rewarding to hit units for the large damage bonus, and makes hitting stacks of units a priority.
Uniqueness - S. It’s Morbin’ time! The unit adds a new dimension to ranged combat, emphasizes anti-naval defense, which is a unique spin on siege UUs, and spreads Siam’s power curve out. Also bonus points for being a siege unit. It’s the complete package.

Baan Chang
Theme - C. The Elephant camp depicts the use of elephants in manual labour; specifically in the forestry industry. It’s not a super-strong thematic link, and could be generalized to most of south and southeast Asia.
Mechanics - B. This building returns Siam to a forest orientation, with bonuses to lumber mills. The building also gives yields for units and resources from city-states. These bonuses compound with the extra CS yields already given by Siam’s UA, but creates a priority for CS with strategic resource deposits and militaristic CS, who now give an additional burst of instant yields in addition to their unit gifts.
Uniqueness – C. No other unique workshops, but the new UB offers minimal new mechanical interactions on a civ that already doesn’t have a lot of unique mechanics going on. Maybe that is a good thing, since the civ offers more passive steroids over standard diplomatic play?

 

[hokath]

Should we use this opportunity to convert the Wat into a faith-purchased building?

 

[EndGoodSmith]

I think the additional gold maintenance on the elephant camp is a strange choice, I don't think any other building in VP or 4UC has this as a drawback. The building also (potentially) gives you gold back as well making it doubly weird. I don't think the flavor benefit is there (elephants eat a lot?). Would prefer to see the standard workshop maintenance.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah, also I think the yields for gifted units should be dropped. It’s too start-dependent; sometimes there are just no militaristic CS.

 

[hokath]

I will edit my counter to reflect these points.

 

[pineappledan]

Edited proposal: added forest/jungle start bias

 

[hokath]

They had the forest/jungle bias in 4UC before? No, right?
Was there discussion about this? Can you summarize?

 

[pineappledan]

Base VP Siam used to have the culture on forest and the bonus was moved from Wat to elephant camp in 4UC, so no change to bias was needed.

Then Siam dropped the bonus from Wat and removed the bias, but 4UC didn't re-add. It should be re-added

 

[azum4roll]

If a Workshop UB can warrant a bias, why can't a Warrior UU have it?

 

[pineappledan]

harder to move buildings than units.

 

[hokath]

MAGI:
This needs
Building_YieldFromXStrategicsFromCS
Building_YieldFromCSUnitGift
AttackDamageIfMaxMoves integer column in UnitPromotions

 

[azum4roll]

I prefer Building_YieldFromCSStrategicTimes100 (stackable) and TileDamageIfNotMoved (more accurate name).