(8-38a) 4UC Siam Wat Change

[hokath]

(8-38) 4UC Siam

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Siamese civilization. Note: the picture description does not list the coastal artillery promotion in the seir morb description. This is because the promotion does not yet exist, and will be implemented in the...

forums.civfanatics.com

The new Netherlands building stacks 2 UBs on the Constabulary.
This presents an excellent opportunity to change the base building of Siam's Wat, since a Constabulary is really not a good choice for it (seriously, who did this and what were you smoking?)

The screenshot from the 8-38 thread

Spoiler :

To unstack I propose we make the Wat a Unique Building Class (i.e. it doesn't replace anything) that is purchased with Faith like the Monastery.
c.f. Monastery and Belief Buildings cost 200. I put this slightly higher since it comes a little later, maybe.
I have bumped the faith yield slightly since +1 seemed too low for a religious building.
See discussion below about religious pressure

UB1 -- Wat (replaces nothing)
unlocked at Theology
no maintenance cost
Cost 300 Faith
+2 Science
+1 Culture
+3 Faith
+3 Science from Shrines and Temples in the City
+10 Influence from Diplomatic Units trained in this City.
+15% Religious Pressure emanating from this City.
On construction receive 1000 Religious Pressure from the Majority Religion in your Capital
-1 Unhappiness from Religious Unrest

note: The religious pressure mechanic already exists in the DLL

We will also tweak the UB to remove some slightly stranger 4UC mechanics, bolded.
UB - Elephant Camp (replaces Workshop):
Available at Civil Service
350 Production Cost
2 Gold maintenance (same as Workshop)
1 Engineer Specialist Slot
+3 Production, +2 Culture and +1 Faith
+1 Production for every 4 Citizens
+1 Production to Forest
+1 Culture to Lumber Mills
+1 Production and +1 Gold in city for every 2 Strategic resources gifted by City-States
Receive 10 Production and 10 Culture every time a City-State gifts a unit, scaling with Era
Allows Production to be moved from this city along Trade Routes inside your civilization
+4 Production to Internal Trade Route from this city

All other components are as in the base proposal.
To be clear this includes the

changed "Leader_Flavor" value for "Defense" to 8
Add Forest/Jungle Start bias

 

[pineappledan]

The university unlocks at the same tech and costs 400 . Why not set it to match that?

Since it's kind of patterned after a faith building, shouldn't it have a bonus to religious pressure and a flat unhappiness reduction?

 

[rkkn]

Monastery costs 150, Belief Buildings cost 200

Monastery is 200, same as the follower beliefs. You just can't access it without also taking the cost reduction policy.

The university unlocks at the same tech and costs 400 . Why not set it to match that?

That'd be an appropriate price if it were replacing a building. Ie the cost of getting the normal building plus the unique aspects. what a typical UB is.
This, however, is essentially half of a building. You take the unique bonuses that a UB would normally get, and cut them off to make a smaller separate building.

Since it's kind of patterned after a faith building, shouldn't it have a bonus to religious pressure and a flat unhappiness reduction?

no. That's only for follower beliefs. This is not one. It's much more like monastery, which does not have those things.
But really it's something else altogether which afaik has no precedent.

 

[hokath]

I added a -1 from Religious Unrest.
I am on the fence about +% religious pressure. I added the lower +15% value but I could see it either way.
I like that with +% religious pressure you could feel safer picking non-building Beliefs which could help you out since you have to save some Faith for the UB.

Maybe now it is worth 400 but tbh sounds a bit high.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't agree with it having pressure modifier (you don't have to spend a belief slot for it). Otherwise it looks great. Maybe 300 cost?

 

[hokath]

Ok looks like 2 v 1 on the pressure thing so shelf that.
Upped to 300 faith.

 

[Stalker0]

so I guess the idea here is that instead of siam spreading its religion and enhancing and such, its going to spend all of its early faith in Wat? Because even 6 cities is 1800 faith, that is 18 missionary charges worth of faith.

That's certainly doable it just changes the concept of Siam as a religious civ. Its not really a religion focus and just more as using faith as a means to an end. Again that's fine but it is a noticable difference from the current civ so is that the intention?

 

[pineappledan]

Hence why I think it should have passive pressure. This building comes at a pivotal time for religion, and it taking this form would massively delay your religion with no compensation.

 

[hokath]

Well you don't need your own Religion to use this building, like the Monastery. So maybe you don't Found, and you don't even want the pressure.
I see it both ways tbh

 

[ma_kuh]

Could it trigger a self-spread action like the Mission did, so that you aren't skipping 18 missionary spreads, just 9? But then it might require you to at least have an adopted religion. But it's a faith building, it really ought to have some level of faith present in the empire before it's buildable, right?

 

[azum4roll]

Do note the tech requirement. At Theology, you should have already spread to all your own cities and maybe a few neighbouring cities. So this should be at the cost of Enhancing (Hagia Sophia is very valuable for Siam now) and sometimes Reforming.

 

[hokath]

Could it trigger a self-spread action like the Mission did, so that you aren't skipping 18 missionary spreads, just 9?

Firstly I assume that was done with lua? Secondly what if you don't have a religion? You can't build it or it just doesn't fire? Seems janky.

At Theology, you should have already spread to all your own cities and maybe a few neighbouring cities. So this should be at the cost of Enhancing (Hagia Sophia is very valuable for Siam now) and sometimes Reforming.

Yes, in the case where you have founded a religion, this is more the comparison I would draw.
You can get the diplo unit boost with just 1 of these buildings, so you might delay in the smaller cities that maybe don't even have Temples yet.

 

[pineappledan]

Firstly I assume that was done with lua? Secondly what if you don't have a religion? You can't build it or it just doesn't fire? Seems janky.

It is dll integrated. On construction the building spreads X amount of pressure from the majority religion in your capital to the city.

I think if we wanted to mitigate the negative impact on the medieval spread game and don’t want to give the Wat any permanent spread bonuses then this is a strong option.

 

[ma_kuh]

If you don't have a state religion then I would say you can't buy it, to avoid missing the spread trigger. It's a religious building, how and why are you building it without a faith?

In reference to the wat as a state-sanctioned Buddhist or Hindu temple, it seems very correct that taking on a neighbor's religion should be required to build this, if you aren't creating a religion yourself.

c.f. Monastery costs 150, Belief Buildings cost 200. I put this slightly higher since it comes a little later, maybe.

Your post still includes the incorrect value for Monasteries, they cost 200 as well but the discount is unavoidable to purchase them.

 

[hokath]

how and why are you building it without a faith?

Well same logic as Monastery

Your post still includes the incorrect value for Monasteries, they cost 200 as well but the discount is unavoidable to purchase them.

Good catch. I checked the database but I probably changed the value myself in the Religious Victory mod (lol)

 

[ma_kuh]

I agree, the Monastery should require a state religion as well.

But this is a congress for 4UC integration, not a general session. Good idea for next time though.

 

[hokath]

It is dll integrated. On construction the building spreads X amount of pressure from the majority religion in your capital to the city.

Will update the OP with this effect then. It will be 1000, equal to 1 missionary spread action.

 

[azum4roll]

Note to implementers: the value will need to be 10000 since it's a Times10 column.

 

[Stalker0]

Will update the OP with this effect then. It will be 1000, equal to 1 missionary spread action.

wouldn't it be simpler to just make the building cheaper on faith? Then I can just make missionaries to spread like normal (or not, I can decide to go power wat if I want to). Its actually more flexible and simplier to implement.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't know why you focus on missionary spread that much. You already have your religion in all of your cities and may have already reformed OR enhanced if you founded at a reasonable time.

I'll miss the extra scientist slot though.