(8-41) 4UC Sweden

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Swedish civilization.

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Hakkapeliitta (replaces Lancer):

available at Metallurgy​

350 Production Cost​

requires Horses​

37 CS​

5 Movement​

No Movement to Pillage​

+1 Sight ​

Hakkaa Päälle! (+20% vs wounded Units, heals 30 HP from killing Units)​

UB - Bastu (replaces Baths):

Available at Metal Casting​

200 Production Cost​

1 Gold maintenance​

no terrain requirements​

+3 Culture and +1 Food​

+1 Culture and +1 Gold to Temple, Amphitheater and Garden​

+10% Culture and +10% Food during Golden Age​

+1 Science to Lakes​

+1 Science for every 2 worked Tundra tiles​

15% of Science output in city as an instant boost to Science and 15% of Culture output in city as an instant boost to Culture whenever a citizen is born​

 

[pineappledan]

Justification for Sweden's 4UC additions:

The Hakkapeliitta is a vanilla unit that was reconstituted for 4UC. Its bonuses are unchanged from ones that were designed for it for use as a CS gift. Thus, 4UC had little input on this unit's design and implementation, we merely re-added it into Sweden as it existed in the main mod already.

Sweden is one of the most pure warmonger civs, with no economic bonuses in its UA and a very late UB. We wanted to give Sweden some sort of economic help at an earlier time. The culture surrounding dry heat baths in Scandinavian cultures, especially Finland and Sweden, made a unique bath an obvious choice. We wanted to give the Bastu some form of growth bonus, because that reflected the many positive health effects of these dry heat sessions, and a growth bonus would reap dividends once the Skola comes online.

All of Sweden's components are DLL integrated

 

[azum4roll]

Does not require river -> does not require fresh water

VP Hakkapeliitta is weaker since it has a -20% CS on the Scout Cavalry promotion (pretty much forced to attack wounded units).

 

[hokath]

I'd like to counterpropose the Bastu bonuses, but it would also involve changing/removing the Skola so perhaps I should wait for a full congress?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The 30 Hp on kill should probably be lowered to 20, such a powerful unit when it takes the field.

 

[Stalker0]

It feels like the UU lancer and carolean step on each others toes. They are both on the field in the same time period, both of them get a kill bonus, so they are fighting on who gets the kill.

The bath....a bonus to tundra and lakes feels too niche to me, you could easily have a civ with none of that terrain.

 

[hokath]

The fact there is no Tundra starting bias on Sweden anymore harms the Bastu for sure.
I do think it makes sense for Sweden to have the tundra bias because (a) I think its easier to play a warmonger when you have the map edge behind you and (b) the pantheons are interesting and its nice to choose to get that start.

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: C-
I don’t think we got it right with Sweden. Sweden is hemmed in by being the “Not-Viking” civ right now, but it is still a warmonger. The Hakkapeliitta is not even Swedish, really. The Bastu is the seed of a good idea, but the bonuses it currently has are all over the place.

Hakkapeliitta
Theme - C. This unit is more Finnish than Swedish, but they did fight for the Swedish Empire. It mainly gets a pass because it was already a vanilla component. Personally I would have opted for a viking component like a Jarl or some sort of Varangian, but we need to have a conversation about whether Denmark and Sweden are “The Viking Scandinavian civ” and “The Not-Viking Scandinavian civ”, respectively.
Mechanics - D. Big heal on kill with a bonus vs wounded. Personally I don’t think this adds much to the Swedish kit; they already have the Carolean in the same era that also has a big AOE damage bonus on kills, so I don’t know what this unit is doing. I just followed the lead of the main mod, who designed the current Hakka’s bonuses.
Uniqueness - D. Unique lancer. Lots of these already, with Persia, Poland, and of course Ottomans waiting in the wing with their Sipahi CS gift. The bonuses are not particularly innovative, and they clash with the existing unit, which uses the same trigger for something more unique. This component is upstaged.

Bastu
Theme - A. Dry heat baths are emblematic of Scandinavian culture, albeit the Finnish saunas are more internationally recognizable. The Bastu are found throughout Sweden. We have accounts of them from the earliest christian missionaries all the way up to the modern day. Like bullfighting is for Spain, sweaty dudes sitting in a little room and hitting each other with leafy branches is peak Sweden.
Mechanics - D. Bonuses on tundra and lakes and additional food on golden ages. This component’s bonuses need a rethink. We intended to help Sweden a bit with growth in the early-mid game so it could reap the benefit of the pop scalers that eventually come with the Skola later on. The specific way we went about that I now feel was a bit wrongheaded.
Uniqueness – C. No other baths in the game, but the yields on specific terrain, the yields on birth, and the golden age bonuses are all scattershot. The building does too many different things to feel like it has much of an identity.

 

[ScarletArkyning]

Maybe the yields on the bastu could be added to forest tiles too. Aren’t a lot of those saunas built in the woods? The food could be moved somewhere else too, helping to condense the bonuses in a bit. Maybe just make it provide a straight 10% food bonus full stop instead of golden ages.

So it could be changed to +1 science per two Tundra or Forest, and +10% food.

Helps make the science more consistent overall because forests are all over the place, and the food becomes more straightforward instead of a weird and arbitrary golden age bonus on a Civ without any focus on golden age

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Hakkas should be reworked as an opening unit for attacks, rather than staying as another finisher. From what I've read, they should be given a ranged attack before combat.

 

[DoveCDog]

The Hakkapeliitta seems to be quite weak in comparison to all the other proposed unique units. I'm for this as Sweeden is currently one of the most OP warmongers.

 

[Rekk]

The Hakka was designed as a CS unit. Its abilities weren't meant to complement the Swedish kit.

 

[hokath]

I'm going to counterpropose the buildings, but leave the units untouched.
If you guys come to an idea about the Hakka then you can counterpropose separately.

Edit: for that discussion I totally agree that both UU wanting to get the kill is poor design and we should look for something better.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

I am from Sweden, we are known for being a big country with a small population (at least for a european country), so growth on Bastu feels a bit weird. Our low population count probably was one of the reasons we had a very well trained standing army at the height of our capabilities in the 17th century.

Agree with everyones assessment that the hakkapelitta and carolean overlap in wanting the last hits which feels bad for the user.

Sweden could totally have a tundra bias, currently only Russia has that I suspect?

 

[hokath]

I don't think even Russia has it at the moment.

 

[Rekk]

Civilizations don't get Start Biases unless there is something specifically in their kit that benefits from it. Neither Russia nor Sweden benefit specifically from Tundra.

 

[pineappledan]

I can sponsor

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.