(8-42) 4UC Venice With 2 Ships

[hokath]

We can't be having 5UC. Here is the ma_kuh suggestion to make the 4UC proposal valid:

(8-42) 4UC Venice

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Venetian civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

I have further edited the Great Galleass to make it more compelling.

Note the stats of the Frigate are 375 Production, 25 CS, 35 RCS, 2 Range, 4 Moves, unlocks Navigation (requires Gunpowder, Astronomy, Chemistry)
The icon for the Great Galleass shows two gun decks, so this is supposed to be after the adoption of arquebus technology onto naval vessels. As such I suggest we slightly separate the two unique units by delaying this one until Gunpowder. This creates a ship between Galleass and Frigate and will more properly mimic how these ships coexisted with the ocean-going sailing vessels (in game: Frigates) in the Venetian navy during this period. In game we already get a feel for why this could be interesting, because Galleass-type units can move after attacking, while Frigates cannot. Feels very different to use.

Changes from original proposal are in bold, while (parentheses) refer to the Galleass itself.
UM1 - Great Galleass (replaces Galleass):
available at Gunpowder (obsoletes at Dynamite & can upgrades to Cruiser)
250 (+75) production
4 movement
20 (+6) CS, 30 (+6) RCS
1 Range
Bombardment I
"Can move after attacking"
"Shallow Draft"
"Cannot melee attack"
"Naval Inaccuracy"

Fascinatingly, it seems Venetian ships were named for the feminized family name of their captain.
We can use Unit_UniqueNames for a bit of flavor here, as is done for the Great Bombard. Make Galleass great again!
Here is an historical list of 25 named ships.

UM2 - Fusta (Range Naval class):
available at Guilds
125 Production Cost
No Gold Maintenance or Supply Cost
5 Movement Points
14 (same) CS, 21 (-3) RCS
1 Range
"Can move after attacking"
"Shallow Draft"
"Cannot melee attack"

Update UNWs such that
Rialto District gets:
+3 Food and +3Gold for each Bank on empire
Arsenale di Venezia gets:
+2 Production and Science for each Bank on empire
Murano Glassworks gets:
+2 Culture and Tourism for each Bank on empire
Piazza San Marco gets:
5% of Gold generated in this city each turn is converted into Great Merchant Points

 

[pineappledan]

5% of Gold generated in this city each turn is converted into Great Merchant Points

I think you're going to need to lower this to like 2% if you're coming to move the Gold to GPP converter to classical. This is going to take off way harder and way faster.

Also should this be accompanied by a change to the 2 specialist slots given by Rialto? It currently has 2 merchant slots, but since San Marco is giving a GMerchant boost that seems unnecessary.

 

[hokath]

You're right, the merchant boost steps on the Rialto really hard and is difficult to balance. Dropped.

 

[pineappledan]

We can't be having 5UC.

I and several others have stated our case for why the fusta/great galleass is in-bounds as a single component slot. They are 2 units replacing a single base component
You seem to accept 4 different UNWs as being 1 UC slot, yet this is beyond the pale?

 

[hokath]

Following discussion on Discord I took a swipe at making the Great Galleass more interesting.
Changes in the OP in bold.

 

[ma_kuh]

The icon for the Great Galleass shows two gun decks, so this is supposed to be after the adoption of arquebus technology onto naval vessels. As such I suggest we slightly separate the two unique units by delaying this one until Gunpowder. This creates a ship between Galleass and Frigate and will more properly mimic how these ships coexisted with the ocean-going sailing vessels (in game: Frigates) in the Venetian navy during this period. In game we already get a feel for why this could be interesting, because Galleass-type units can move after attacking, while Frigates cannot. Feels very different to use.

I'm not sure why, but I'm having trouble following which boat you think should cover which slots in your description. As I read it:

1. Great Galleass is big, so it should be between Galleass and Frigate.
2. The Great Galleass is the Galleass replacement.
3. Adding the Fusta mimics the ... Galleass being contemporary with Frigates? But it doesn't replace the Galleass?
4. When does the Fusta upgrade, to which unit? Or does it never upgrade/obsolete?
5. You state one of the feel differences of Galleass v. Frigate is one is a skirmisher and the other is an archer, but then both UUs are skirmisher-style (move after attack).

Maybe it's a matter of expectations, but as I started reading your explanation I expected the Great Galleass to be like an early Frigate (range 2, no move after attack), to differentiate it from the Fusta (which covers the Guilds/Galleass era unit slot). But that's not where you went with it.


What if the Fusta was a naval "mercenary" type unit. So its unique qualities are move-after-purchase and full XP from purchase (in addition to being cheap-but-weak). That solidifies it as the buy-for-best-value unit, and is unique among naval UUs. I like the idea that the Great Galleass is the Galleass replacement unit, but I also would like it if Liburna were upgrading into Fusta instead of Great Galleass. This way the gold-centric option (upgrading/buying) leads to Fusta, while the production-centric option (building in the capital) leads to Great Galleass.


EDIT: Actually, I'm starting to wonder if the Fusta is even a good Venice UU at all... it seems much more ubiquitous than just the Venetian navy. Might it be better positioned as a generic unit, or a policy-unlocked unit? Thoughts for another day, perhaps.

 

[Rekk]

Adding the Fusta mimics the ... Galleass being contemporary with Frigates? But it doesn't replace the Galleass?

Fusta is available at Guilds, where Galleas is. He's proposing a delayed Galleas UU (making it contemporary with Frigates) and a new UnitClass UU that is contemporary with Galleass. I believe the Fusta upgrades into Frigate.

 

[Rekk]

it seems much more ubiquitous than just the Venetian navy

And the Galleass was essentially only in the Venetian navy.

 

[hokath]

Yes the fact that all civs get Galleass is perhaps the strange bit, but that will have to be for a later session.

 

[hokath]

Following discussion in the other Venice thread I've amended OP with two changes.
1) Fusta has same CS as Galleass rather than 3 fewer. RCS is still lower.
2) Fusta has a maintenance cost (still supply free). If you want to build 20 extra Fusta to cheese out +2 hammers, +2 happiness you will have to pay for it. Of course Gold is not usually the problem but still, there must be some trade-off.

 

[hokath]

MAGI:Looks like just database @azum4roll

 

[azum4roll]

Depends where you want to put the building yields. On the UNW or on the buildings?

 

[pineappledan]

I’m assuming you want a new table for this, it is written as the UNW gets yields for each building on empire, not that the buildings get yields. That is a very consequential difference for Venice because of the puppet yield penalties.

 

[Rekk]

I’m assuming you want a new table for this, it is written as the UNW gets yields for each building on empire, not that the buildings get yields. That is a very consequential difference for Venice because of the puppet yield penalties.

Can't you just give the ability to the buildings? I don't think they show up in EUI.

 

[pineappledan]

Oh that's true, since the 3 wonders are unique building classes.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.