[Vote] (8-44) Special Vote | Supply Rework

[hokath]

Current Status
There has been a concern that Tall empires (few cities) simply cannot fight against Wide empires (many cities) due to a large disparity in Supply.
The objective of this proposal is,

...to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio
(NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide.
Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand, all other factors being equal.

Originally proposed in the 7th session, this proposal was vetoed because of how opaque the changes were to the average user.
Since then, an implemented version of the proposal has been distributed in beta version threads for testing.
This is a revote on that concept, with counterproposals.

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(8-44) azum4roll's Unit Supply Rework

Host Notes: This proposal was originally made in Session #7 in this discussion thread. I decided to code it as a modmod (which you can download here or on the OP of the 4.11 release thread) so that the community could playtest the changes before voting on them. As the work is essentially done...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @Recursive
Sponsor(s): @azum4roll (database)

Proposal Details
See the discussion thread, where detailed information is tabulated.

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(8-44a) Reduce Lategame Supply and Supply From Puppets + Some Tweaks

Counterproposal to (8-44) azum4roll's Unit Supply Rework Problems: 1) So, proposed rework feels great during early game but run out of control in the lategame almost as previous version. It's all mostly caused by too much supply from population: by the last turn (information era) there were 56...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @Yngwie
Sponsor(s): @Recursive

Proposal Details
everything the same except:
1)
Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base lose 5% supply from population. (totally 25%)
Barracks, Armory, Military academy gain +5% supply from population (totally 15%), retain all flat bonuses

Bastion Fort lose +1 Flat Supply, gain +10% City's ranged strike damage (this +1 Flat supply was justified by "age of sail", so, moved to Seaport. City's RCS move from Military base)
Seaport gain +1 Flat Supply, retain +10% supply from population
Military base lose +10% City's ranged strike damage (City strike mean nothing at this stage of a game with those hordes of tanks, planes, etc. - moved to Bastion Fort)
Great Wall lose +3 Flat supply, gain -5% Empire size modifier in all Cities (already give huge defensive bonus - no need to increase the army. Calmer population instead)

2)
Puppet Cities provide 20% supply from all sources (Venice get 50%) same as for yields. (Imho Venice is the best warmonger machine in human hands right now, limitations are needed)
Martial Law (Imperialism) gain -20% penalty to Yields and Supply in puppet Cities

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(8-44b) Supply Rework By Adjusting City's Base HP

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-44-azum4rolls-unit-supply-rework.690583/ Proposed changes: Reduce city's base HP to 200 from 300 Implement Yngwie's puppet nerf idea: Puppet Cities provide 20% supply :c5war: from all sources (Venice get 50%) same as for yields. (Imho Venice is the...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @Pipiskus
Sponsor(s): @Recursive

Proposal Details
Implement point 2) from 44a

Spoiler :

Puppet Cities provide 20% supply from all sources (Venice get 50%) same as for yields. (Imho Venice is the best warmonger machine in human hands right now, limitations are needed)
Martial Law (Imperialism) gain -20% penalty to Yields and Supply in puppet Cities

Then Reduce city's base HP to 200 from 300

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(8-44c) azum4roll's Counterproposal To His Own Proposal

Links: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-44-azum4rolls-unit-supply-rework.690583/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-44a-azum4rolls-unit-supply-rework.690648/ https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/8-44b-reduce-lategame-supply-and-supply-from-puppets-some-tweaks.690658/...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor(s): @Recursive

Proposal Details
Everything's same as the original proposal, except:
1. Reduce city's base HP from 300 to 250. Reduce HP per population from 10 to 8. Reduce HP from Walls from 125 to 100.
Early war needs a buff with the supply reduction, but city CS also affects the damage done to units, which is fine right now. Reducing HP should be the way to go.
2. Increase "Difficulty Flat Supply Bonus" by a further +2 across all difficulties and AI.
This should solve the early supply problem without affecting late game.

 

[usadefcon1]

Which version are we voting for?

 

[azum4roll]

Which version are we voting for?

Yes

 

[Recursive]

Oh.

Fixed!

 

[hokath]

I like a) because it reduces supply from population a bit, which in the late game I think will be helpful. Overall I prefer a world with less supply.

I also like the +supply moved to Seaport, since navies can be quite large especially later on, and I think that little split is helpful.
There is a modmod that goes as far as making naval supply separate to land supply -- perhaps overly complicated but I'm more towards that end of the spectrum.

 

[rusbeh]

I dont see how 8-44c makes sense. Early city defense and walls would be nerfed but then the early game supply would be buffed so it's back to being too large. I haven't had any problems with the new supply rework in the early game.

 

[Agiwan]

I can confirm that Venice supply seems way higher than it should, relative to other civs using the new supply modmods, and I feel that late game supply still too much, by ~10%.

Edit: Well it seems that the culcript is the Autocracy tenet "United Front", maybe the 25% supply from population is too much ?

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.