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8 Ages of War v1.3.0 Release

Overhaul of promotions for land units as well as nerfing of ranged units and small boost to the mili

  1. Mglo

    Mglo Chieftain

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    That is the exact reason why i love this mod. Maybe they're a bit too bad, but without this mod i can win a game with 3 Archers and a Warrior. By taking 5+ cities/city states in the beginning and because of that having an enormous lead.
     
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  2. reee

    reee Chieftain

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    a bit bad lol he is pure and usles qq
    i reali like and need this mod but archer is have 2 broken arms wtf and i realy like ranged unit in civ so hope we to get some fix on this pls
     
  3. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Archers work exactly as intended IMO. They weaken units (and by focusing fire can do so critically) but cannot form an army on their own. Good in defence when placed in cities, but vulnerable out in the open when there are no units to protect them.
     
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  4. Mglo

    Mglo Chieftain

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    Exactly. Your mod and this change have given the game a new life for me. If not for this "nerf". i'd had stopped playing by now for sure.
     
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  5. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    Use the mod or don't, but don't be a jerk about it either way.

    Moderator Action: Please do not feed trolls. If a post upsets you, then report it and move on. Posts like this only derail threads. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2016
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  6. reee

    reee Chieftain

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    hope some one to made mod like this bit no 2 broken arm for arsher qq pls note me uf is some oder mod like this
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  7. Lewi11

    Lewi11 Chieftain

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    Agree completely. It was no fun being able to dominate the map with 3 Archers. The archer nerf in this mod makes combat much more enjoyable, not to mention realistic.
     
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  8. Lewi11

    Lewi11 Chieftain

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    Has anyone tried this with the December Patch yet?
     
  9. Sesostris

    Sesostris Chieftain

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    I've tried it, it seems to work without issues.
     
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  10. Apostremo

    Apostremo Warlord

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    Hello Olleus,
    are there any newer versions than 11/18 avaible? Your previews made me curious for the new changes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  11. deathpickle

    deathpickle Chieftain

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    I like the changes to archers, I think it's good to put them in a role of poke, and have them be completely ****** in melee; This puts ranged units in a supporting role, and leaves melee units to be the real stars of the battle which is how it ought to be.
    It makes sense for archers to be so weak against melee as they can be placed somewhere safe behind your army, but 1 range units cannot be protected behind your army. 1 range units are effectively front line units, and as a result need to have enough combat strength to survive, or else no one will use them outside of garrisons and other niche high defense locations. I feel a 1 range unit should generally speaking be at about equal footing to a melee unit. Due to it's low defensive strength, it has a weakness being easy to focus down, so it's not like it doesn't have meaningful weakness, or unique game play from melee units.
    Also the -5 strength causes problems with slingers as they get 0 strength, which makes them unable to gain exp. I'm currently modifying the mod so that it puts them back to normal strength.

    Another thing that I don't like is that ranged/siege units are too weak against city bombardment, meaning siege weapons get focused down and destroyed before they can even land a single hit.
    I propose that you reduce city bombardment damage vs ranged/siege class units by 10. It would be an effective and precise balance update, although city bombardment might be better off being reduced entirely, particularly in the late game when it's free and every city has it.

    My last preposition is to make military engineers also act as siege towers as well.

    Cheers, I love this mod btw :)
     
  12. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    So I'm updating this mod to work with the latest patch. Nothing too major in the pipelines. I'm also fixing some bugs (like slingers having strength 0). The few new changes I wanted to make - in response to comments here are:
    1. Siege Towers and Rams upgrade to engineers rather than medics. This just makes so much more sense
    2. All cavalry units have -2 str, +25% cost and double maintenance. Maintaining a cavalry force was always very expensive, now if you want to have all horses, you're going to have a very small army. Combined with promotion changes, I think this makes cavalry less of a kill all

    I've also still got plans to completely rebalance the unit strength and add a couple of units, but that's not ready yet. Or rather, I lost it last month in a hard drive failure and don't have the time to completely redo it yet
     
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  13. Littlebob86

    Littlebob86 Prince

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    Awesome!

    Are your mods on steam??? And are you only updating this one.. Yours and tcs mods made me enjoy the game.. Haven't played it since
     
  14. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    They will be soon. Also updating 8 Ages of Pace
     
  15. Littlebob86

    Littlebob86 Prince

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    Yo legend! Thank you!
     
  16. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    I made one small edit to your mod in all the time I've been playing with it. I made range 2 units have -7 combat strength and range 1 units have -4 combat strength. This solves the slinger problem and also I think is overall better, as I think ranged units were made a little too weak before.

    Personally I would also take another look at the promotions. I nearly always take +cs vs melee rather than +cs vs ranged (as ranged), and +cs vs naval rather than +movement (as ships), but that may be just me.

    In my own mod I boosted the strength of Galleys and Quadriremes since there seemed no other reason for early navy, but there may be a better way to fix that.

    I'm excited to see what you do!
     
  17. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Anyone else have comments about the promotions? It's really, really, really hard for me to get enough game experience to see if they are balanced. And then I'm always falling for my own biases anyway. More data/opinions always welcome!

    Undoing part of the nerf of ranged units is interesting... I'm planning to completely redo unit strengths anyway. Here is my proposed list of strengths, based on a 'scientific' approach detailed below.
    Era Shock (+12 vs Anti-cav) Anti-cav (+15 vs cav) Heavy Cav Light Cav Ranged (-17 vs cities) Siege (-17 vs units)
    Ancient Warrior 20 Spear 28 Chariot 30 Slinger15/5(r1) Archer 16/5
    Classical Swords 36 Horseman 34 Catapult 26/14
    Medieval Pike 44 Knight 46 Crossbow 32/21
    Renaissance Musket 54 Bombard 44/32
    Industrial Fusilier 62 Cavalry 62 Field Gun 50/37
    Modern Infantry 72 Tank 70 Artillery 60/48
    Atomic Bazooka 80 Helicopter 80 Machine Gun 68/55 (r2)
    Information Mech Infantry 90 Modern Armor 88 Rocket Artillery 78/64


    [Want to rename melee to Shock in order to avoid confusion with melee being general close-quarter fighting. Would like to do the same thing with ranged units, any suggestions welcome. ]

    Infantry A few things I want to point out. The two infantry (melee) lines progress evenly through all eras with every era giving exactly 1 new infantry type, and the strengths move steadily (ie, new anti-cav is 8 more than latest shock, new shock is 10 more than latest anti-cav [swordsman slightly different because it doesn't skip an era]). This works because Shock has +12 against anti-cav, so there will always be 2 types of infantry melee units that are useful at any given time. Fusilier would be a napoleonic style line infantry, vaguely like the riflemen of previous civs. These two lines define the base at which strength progresses through the tree.

    Cavalry The cavalry lines are different, because of the large gap after knights. It's worth separating the early and late units. The chariot and archer appear at the same era as their counter (spear and pike) and are thus strongly countered. To make them somewhat useful, they have 2 more strength than their counters. This gives spears/pikes a strong +13 vs chariots/knights, while still making the latter the strongest units of the game up to that point. That suits historically, and is good game balance IMO. Tanks and Modern armour do not appear in same era as a new anti-cav unit, so are only weakly countered. As such, they have 2 less strength than the strongest in game unit at the time. Thus, a tank is -2 vs an Infantry and -7 vs a Fusilier. This means that tanks have no huge weakness but are not particularly strong either. The correct way to use them is make use of their fast movement to overwhelm the enemy and simply take a -2/-7 penalty on the chin. Again, feels historical.

    Light cavalry have 8 less strength than the heavy cavalry that supersedes them. This puts them in a nice place compared to other units and nicely halfway between the heavy cavalry. The main strength of this in the first half is that horsemen are only weakly countered, so a horsemen behaves a little like a tank. In the second half, however, they are strongly countered. This means that cavalry and helicopters are incredibly vulnerable. But they have an extra move to make up for that, so I think it's fair.

    Note also that cavalry units have received a flat +25% cot increase and have their maintenance doubled. Beware of going all cavalry.

    Ranged Keeping this simple. Ranged units have 12 less ranged strength than the strongest infantry unit of that era, and 25 less melee strength than the corresponding cavalry unit. Means that they deal some (but low) amounts of damage when attacking and can almost-but-not-quite be 1-hit-killed on the defence. Look after your ranged unit! Machine gun has been boosted to 2 range and will be renamed to Mortar as soon as a model is made because a machine gun being weak in defence is insane.

    Siege In between the ranged units that came the era before and after. Exact strengths picked to take into account when the stronger outer defences appear. Balanced in such a way that the latest siege unit will always be better against cities than the latest ranged unit; and that the latest ranged unit is always better against units than the latest ranged unit. Siege units are also more vulnerable to melee attacks than ranged units, as they should be.

    Now obviously this is open to fine tuning. Specially, as not the entire era of a tech tree is researched at once, some techs are more easy to obtain than others, resources matter, air units appear in the last third, etc.. etc... I think I want to adopt some mods that add a few extra requisite to military units in the tech tree, and one that makes resources give a combat boost/penalty rather than a strict requirement. What are your thoughts? Once there is good agreement on this I'll move to fitting UU's around this framework.

    I also want to do some more renaming, I don't like the 'generic' unit names, especially when it clashes with the unit branch, and want to give names that are more evocative of unit's role. Such as Musketman->Grenadier, Infantry->???(Some type of WW1/2 assault infantry?), Cavalry->Hussar, Artillery->Howitzer.

    Apologies for the long post, I had some code running at work and got distracted...
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  18. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    1) I approve of renaming to Shock. Doesn't help if we don't redo all of the vanilla tooltips, though (and other mods). Is there something wrong with Ranged?

    2) I would leave the generic units names the same. If you make them too fancy people will think they're unique units, and in fact the new names may clash with other mods.

    3) Keep in mind that Archers recently got a cost nerf.

    4) Keep in mind that City Defense is based on the strongest melee (ships count too, I think mounted too) unit the defender has *ever* built.

    5) If you make resources a combat boost/penalty, what is the benefit of the Encampment? Currently it allows you to build units with only 1 resource instead of 2, and it feels like an appropriate ability both for the district system and the unit system.

    6) I like the idea of making Mounted units more expensive to maintain, though idk if they need a cost nerf. Production is already super scarce in this game, and that effects all parts of the game.

    7) I would suggest making all late game offense much stronger than late game defense. Currently there is barely any reason to war late game. There are heavy diplomatic penalties and war weariness, you don't have much time to get a benefit out of the war, late game units are super expensive to build, and time is running out to bother researching and producing units when there are victory conditions to be achieved. By making siege, tanks, bombers, and helicopters stronger, you can open up a window where a blitzkreig is not just possible, but *profitable*. Of course Bazookas should be able to hold their own, but this is why no +anti-cav production policy exists.

    8) Keep in mind that Horsemen/Swordsmen/Knights/Cavalry all use the same 2 resources which are revealed early in the game and can thus be planned around. This basically does not happen for the rest of the game. Since resourced units are thus harder to come by for the rest of the game, I would suggest proportionally increasing the late-game resourced advantage over the Shock/Anti-Cav/Ranged units.
     
  19. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    I quite like the look of your changes. A few comments:

    - I would also leave the generic unit names to avoid clashes with potential UUs.
    - I strongly support making resources a combat boost instead of required to build a unit. I used that in the old version of my Omnibus mod and had plans to update that component, but if you are going to include it I see no reason to do the same :) @Atlas627 , the Encampment can still be useful by making its buildings provide extra production towards units (I do this with my Better City Specializations mod), plus don't forget the experience bonus units trained in an Encampment receive.
    - I also think that at least the late game Heavy Cav should be buffed, in fact I think they should be the strongest units in the game, stronger than Mechanized Infantry. Modern Armor are still effectively countered by Bazookas.
     
  20. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    All good points. Thank you for taking the time to read my rant, much appreciated :)

    - I'll leave the generic names alone as far as possible.
    - Changing all the tool tips will be a pain, maybe this can be automated through sql in some way? I am worried about potential conflicts with other mods too, not sure how to work around this...
    - The problem with ranged for slinger/archer/xbow is that siege units and some ships are also described as ranged. If I get a +5 vs ranged units, does that also apply to catapults? It's confusing.
    - The late game should favour the attacker more, because corps and armies increase unit strengths but not cities and also enable the beligerous party to pump more production into the front line. There's also the benefit of accumulated promotions that a warmonger will have had. What other boosts did you have in mind?
    - Buffing late game heavy cavalry is difficult. I don't want a repeat of the current situation where (in the classical era) horsemen are the best even if they are (nominally) countered by spearman. As it stands, the only counter to modern armor is a bazooka. The bazooka has a mediocre +7 str bonus, but does this at the cost of 2 moves and being (literally) the weakest unit in the game. A semi competent player could easily manage to avoid getting his modern armor hit by bazookas. I would like to make tanks/modern armour stronger, but they need an extra weakness to compensate. I'm completely open to suggestions

    Changes to how resources work has been done with a few mods already. Apparently it's had a marked improvement on the AI as a side effect. Not too sure how it works/is balanced, but perhaps it's best left as a separate mod component.

    One new points: The musket stands out as being fairly unbeatable. There is no other unit in it's era that can take it on. It eats pikemen for breakfast and can shrug off xbows without flinching. Knights are the closest competitors, but fighting at -8 hurts. How about moving cavalry back one era to the Renaissance with a strength of 50 and keeping 5 moves? Then at least a player without niter can survive until field cannons/fusiliers even things out a little. I also like the idea a big lull in cavalry units until tanks come bursting onto the stage, and it means that both the renaissance and the industrial era have 3 new land units each.
     

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