[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Iroquois

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Iroquois civilization.

Spoiler Current kit :

The only change to the base kit is the addition of a UA bonus that helps generate more of the unique Great Diplomat

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UA - Receive a Free Tadodaho (Great Diplomat) whenever you complete a Policy Branch

UM - Prowler (replaces Musketman):

available at Metallurgy​

275 Production Cost​

22 CS, 32 RCS​

2 Range​

2 Movement​

"Withdraw Before Melee"​

"Indirect Fire"​

UGP - Tadodaho (replaces Great Diplomat)

Receive a free Tadodaho whenever you complete a policy tree.​

Can construct Embassies​

+1 Paper resource when expended​

Can be expended in City-State Territory for a large sum of Influence for you, and all other Civilizations lose Influence​

Resting Influence increased by 45 When expended for a Diplomatic Mission (up from 35)​

"Reciprocity" - When expended for any action, all yields from the tile the Tadodaho occupied are permanently added to your Capital​

 

[pineappledan]

Justification for the 4UC additions

Prowler
With the addition of a renaissance UU, the Iroquois have a component that puts them properly within their historical context. The Prowler is nothing particularly complex or fancy, very similar to the Babylonian bowman. However, in combination with the forest movement from the UA they are truly dangerous units, able to move and fire through rough terrain that makes them both very difficult to see and even harder to catch. Even if you do manage to catch up to them there is a good chance they can slip away from you with their ability to withdraw from melee attacks.

Tadodaho
4UC adds a new dimension to the Iroquois, giving them an edge in diplomacy. This is something a few community members have been vocal about adding to the Six Nations for a long time. The Iroquois have strong economic incentives and a few more opportunities to generate great diplomats, though the diplomatic bonuses remain a secondary part of their kit.
The Reciprocity ability works particularly well if you plant embassies. Even if you didn't get to a city-state first, you can still expend the Tadodaho on other civs' embassies and still get a lot of yields

 

[Rustonreddit]

Can someone for the love of Sid Meier explain how this works?:

- are we discussing the 4UC for each civ before we know if the Mod as a whole will be integrated with the base game?
- why are we saying "This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components" when what this does is changing substancialy the other 2 too? This is not "adding" this is changing everything.

 

[pineappledan]

These are being posted as aides for users when the integration vote is posted. These are very time consuming posts to make so I am putting them up ahead of time.

I've started with posting the civs with the largest changes. The only civs with major changes to base components are Aztecs and Rome. Iroquois, Polynesia, Inca and Greece have minor tweaks to facilitate a coherent kit, but little else.
The remaining 37 civs have no changes to their base kits aside from leader flavors.

 

[Chippy Smith]

So then you do not want critiques on the abilities themselves, gotcha. I value the images you are making with the full kit greatly, I'm gonna make a gallery with all 43 civs for my viewing pleasure Thanks for all that you do/have done!

 

[pineappledan]

Critiques of the civ as a whole are totally fair game I think, that is why I post their original kit.

If you want to counterpropose 4UC by changing the base VP kit that is fine. Integration vote needs to actually pass before you counterpropose though. Any counterproposal threads will be deleted until the vote passes, because they only serve to add confusion before the supermajority vote.

 

[hokath]

Prowler are extremely scary and have been the bane of my existence multiple times.
It may be that lower combat strength is warranted, or something entirely replacing "withdraw before melee". I like it thematically but with woods and indirect fire it can be unassailable.

 

[azum4roll]

Prowlers are 100% invincible in the woods. It's pretty much impossible to catch them with melee unless you surround the whole forest, and ranged can't hit them either because of the trees. While they just shoot you every turn.

 

[ma_kuh]

Could consider replacing Indirect Fire and Withdraw From Melee with Can Move After Attacking. They would retain the step-fire-retreat pattern that makes them scary, but much easier to hunt and if you do find them (probably with a Woodsman melee unit), you can at least get a hit on them.

 

[Stalker0]

the great diplomat looks solid, I was going to say that a musket with forest move and withdraw and indirect fire seems a bit nuts, looks like a few others agree

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: B+
The Haudenosaunee components are a major corrective for their historical character and time period. The UU resolves the anachronism of the entire kit unlocking in Classical while the new Tadodaho adds that diplomatic and political angle, fleshing out the Iroquois and adding a diplomacy focus to the kit that was otherwise mostly focused on war. The major shortcoming of the 4UC additions is the Prowler’s specific bonuses, which are somehow uninteresting and really frustrating to play against at the same time.

Prowler
Theme - A. A component from European contact and the Beaver Wars, and pushing Iroquois history into their actual time period. This is a good corrective for the theme of the Iroquois kit overall.
Mechanics - C. In the right terrain the Prowler is uncounterable. The combination of woodland road movement, firing through rough terrain, and withdraw on melee attack makes it almost impossible to lose a Prolwer even if you try. While hilarious, it might be too much.
Uniqueness - C. Musketman replacements are common. There are 2 in base VP already. This is another case of a ranged UU that has raw power as its unique angle.

Tadodaho
Theme - S. Unique great person that hearken back to the birth of the 5/6 nations confederacy. This is a central institution of Haudenosaunee political life.
Mechanics - A. Very interesting bonus of giving permanent yields from the tile it is expended on. Fun to use, and interesting.
Uniqueness - A. There are no other Great Diplomats, and there is only 1 other civ that gives stacking yields from diplomatic missions, but they do it a different way. The only shortcoming of this unit is that the Iroquois don’t have much more than the basic diplomacy tools for generating them.

 

[DoveCDog]

Does the Reciprocity bonus get lost when the City State is captured by another player?

 

[pineappledan]

No, as coded now it is permanent

 

[ma_kuh]

What was VP's rationale for moving the Longhouse from Workshop to Herbalist? Lodge/Smokehouse? Just to enable swordsman rushes better? I guess it was on the herbalist until the lodge got introduced.

End of Medieval seems like the historically more correct time period for the Six Nations longhouses, and having it be a more expensive building means it can do cooler stuff. With 4UC's introduction of a diplo focus for the Iroquois I would lean into that perhaps.

 

[azum4roll]

Longhouse is still a herbalist.

 

[ma_kuh]

Of course, I think I got tripped up with the smokehouse and it was all downhill from there.

I'm still curious though, are Iroquios starts just unplayable without it being so early?

 

[azum4roll]

Well, the forests/jungles are just normal forests/jungles before longhouse, and none of them can be improved before Metal Casting. Not unplayable, but it'll push them towards a warpath since all they have are military bonuses before then.

Even with 4UC's unique diplomat, the earliest you can get one is from Roman Forum.