[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Ottomans

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Ottomans civilization.

Spoiler Full kit with 4UC changes :

Spoiler Description of new components and changes to existing kit, differences from base component are underlined: :

UM - Great Turkish Bombard (Unique Siege Unit Class):

available at Gunpowder​

375 Production Cost​

may only have 2 at one time.​

12 CS, 43 RCS​

2 Range​

2 Movement​

"City Assault"​

"Siege Inaccuracy II" (-50% RCS vs Land Units. Lost after unit upgrade)​

"Sahi Topu" (Unit damage itself on Attack for 15 HP)​

requires Iron​

UGPTI - Tersane:

Built by expending Great Admirals or Great Generals ​

Can be placed next to a city on water tiles and not next to another tersane​

+2 Production +2Science and +3 Gold​

50% Tile Defense​

Claims Adjacent Tiles​

Damages adjacent enemy Units​

The Adjacent City gains +25%Naval Unit production and 10XP for Naval units trained in the City. Bonus does not stack from multiple Tersane in the city.​

UA change:

changed "Leader_Flavor" value for "Offense" to 7​

changed "Leader_Flavor" value for "Naval" to 6​

changed starting bias:​

deleted Hills​

added Coast​

 

[pineappledan]

Reserved

 

[azum4roll]

Does the Tersane actually affect the adjacent city, or is it the city that owns the tile? Matters when you citadel and then build one adjacent to another player's city (that's evil).

 

[pineappledan]

It affects the adjacent city. Maybe it should work by tile owner instead, like how you describe, but it’s currently implemented to get the adjacent city.

 

[hokath]

"Sahi Topu" (Unit damage itself on Attack for 15 HP)
Perhaps we consider reducing this to 10 or 5 now it comes later.

 

[halcyon.plus]

Is there any room for rethinking the Great Bombard?

I've used it in war play a few times, and my opinion is as follows.

[Merit]
Super firepower
[Demerit]
No promotion carried over with upgrades
Sahi Topu's disadvantages are too great
Siege weapons are easily targeted, making it difficult to continue participating in battles
(Of course, there will be melee units to protect them.)

The demerit are too great, so it cannot participate in the main battlefield.
Its use is limited to border battles and one-shot battles.
This means it cannot earn experience points, and it is not an option for upgrades after the Industrial Era.

Its strategic value would increase if it had at least free promotion that was not lost with upgrades.

Since automatic translation is used, some expressions may be incorrect.
I apologize in advance.

 

[hokath]

Perhaps free Siege I or even Siege II instead of the current city bonus would be a good idea.
Not only is it retained on upgrade, it also puts you much closer to Range, which alleviates the other problems of fragility.
Having Range on a UU is a big problem (see Longbowman discussion), but since you can only have 2 Bombards, it has a nice self-regulation built in.

p.s. I love your formatting

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I generally found that Great Bombards do 3-4x the dmg to a City as a Cannon. You can take them down in record time if both are in position attacking the same City. If you aren't able to siege the City down before the Bombards lose most of their health, their downsides are very noticeable and painful. I did not make much use of their earlier unlock, outside of making them before unlocking Gunpowder for an attack. You really should just wait for Gunpowder tech to have Jannisary.

These are fairly old images.

Spoiler Cannon/ Great Bombard vs City :

 

[Rosete]

My favourite UU is the great bombard. Once you managed to get it in range of a city, that city is going down. It feels satisfying to blast 30% of a city's HP in one shot. A powerful unit with clear roles and clear weaknesses.

On the other hand, the Tersane feels like a non component. The Ottoman doesn't have any natural way to generate GG/GA in its kit. Any GG/GA generated is better used for the %damage amp or pop them for citadel/healing. The only time you would want to make a Tersane is if you have a big surplus of GG/GA, but usually by that point I no longer have any need for the pitiful yields. The improvement is also incredibly restrictive, pitiful yields, and some other bonus that you'd likely never use anyway.

 

[Stalker0]

can I assume that the great bombard replaces the regular cannon? (it doesn't say and its mention unique siege engine so didn't know if you could build both). I will say if the numbers quoted above are correct than I don't mind the damage the unit takes, the key is you need to time it where both bombards hit the city at the same time, and ideally on the turn they move in, otherwise they may take too much damage and have to pull back.

The Tersane to me seems like a way to turn a port into a super port. You basically gain a massive bonus to ships, and you have a tile that you can slap down a melee ship and you are probably never going to lose that port until subs become a thing. Seems cool enough, you don't need a lot of them to make some very powerful use of the ability, even 1-2 is a lot.

 

[Haldar]

can I assume that the great bombard replaces the regular cannon? (it doesn't say and its mention unique siege engine so didn't know if you could build both). I will say if the numbers quoted above are correct than I don't mind the damage the unit takes, the key is you need to time it where both bombards hit the city at the same time, and ideally on the turn they move in, otherwise they may take too much damage and have to pull back.

The Tersane to me seems like a way to turn a port into a super port. You basically gain a massive bonus to ships, and you have a tile that you can slap down a melee ship and you are probably never going to lose that port until subs become a thing. Seems cool enough, you don't need a lot of them to make some very powerful use of the ability, even 1-2 is a lot.

it does not replace Cannon; it is completely separate, unique siege unit; does not replace anything, can be upgraded though to Field gun (though i believe with it losing some of the promotions, as field gun it hits cities less than as Great Bombard)

 

[hokath]

On the other hand, the Tersane feels like a non component. The Ottoman doesn't have any natural way to generate GG/GA in its kit. Any GG/GA generated is better used for the %damage amp or pop them for citadel/healing. The only time you would want to make a Tersane is if you have a big surplus of GG/GA, but usually by that point I no longer have any need for the pitiful yields. The improvement is also incredibly restrictive, pitiful yields, and some other bonus that you'd likely never use anyway.

I must disagree with you. The defensive boost alone has saved many of my coastal cities from naval invasion since it often makes the difference between 1-shot and 2-shot the defending ship. This gives you time to reinforce from the (production-boosted) city and can prevent blockade. Also, "pitiful yields"? It gives +7 to a tile that already has a base of at least 31 (Lighthouse). Comparable to other GPTI.

Can be placed next to a city on water tiles

Did you change this? When I played in the last version I could put the improvement on any water tile.

 

[FinMc]

Is there any room for rethinking the Great Bombard?

I've used it in war play a few times, and my opinion is as follows.

[Merit]
Super firepower
[Demerit]
No promotion carried over with upgrades
Sahi Topu's disadvantages are too great
Siege weapons are easily targeted, making it difficult to continue participating in battles
(Of course, there will be melee units to protect them.)

The demerit are too great, so it cannot participate in the main battlefield.
Its use is limited to border battles and one-shot battles.
This means it cannot earn experience points, and it is not an option for upgrades after the Industrial Era.

Its strategic value would increase if it had at least free promotion that was not lost with upgrades.

Since automatic translation is used, some expressions may be incorrect.
I apologize in advance.

I find them crazy strong but they are glass cannons. Good design imo

 

[pineappledan]

Overall grade: B+
Doubling down on Ottoman's peaceful UA with pure warmonger components, The tersane adds a naval dimension to Ottoman's kit while the Great Bombard expands on the siege bonuses to create a truly terrifying super-unit. Very fun additions that round out an already interesting kit.

Great Turkish Bombard
Theme - S. The unit that conquered Constantinople and ushered in the Renaissance. A must-have unit for the Ottomans.
Mechanics - A. The self-damage is thematic and adds an interesting tactical dimension. The overwhelming power at unlock is just plain fun, and while the drawbacks are severed it doesn’t prevent a good player from getting some very satisfying hits off with the gun.
Uniqueness - B. It’s a really big cannon. At the end of the day it is just a direct upgrade over the standard cannon with a strict unit cap. Bonus points for being a unique siege weapon though

Tersane
Theme - A. Adds back some of that naval flavor from vanilla, but in a way that emphasizes Ottoman shipbuilding rather than the use of North African vassals.
Mechanics - B. Functions almost like a Polish Ducal stable with an improvement model.
Uniqueness – S. Adds a unique improvement, which gives a huge benefit for generating Great Admirals, which I have usually feels anemic to me. The Tersane is a welcome boost to Ottoman’s naval power which makes them a rounded, omni-competent military civ.

 

[hokath]

MAGI:
Bombard self damage on attack needs a new UnitPromotions column
Improvements somehow needs to give the Tersane

The Adjacent City gains +25%Naval Unit production and 10XP for Naval units trained in the City. Bonus does not stack from multiple Tersane in the city.

And this needs to be taught to the AI since currently it only builds these due to a lua script

 

[pineappledan]

The GAdmiral doesn’t currently have any improvement logic, because they don’t normally build improvements.

 

[hokath]

@KungCheops any idea if your recent changes will allow this to work out the box?

 

[KungCheops]

@KungCheops any idea if your recent changes will allow this to work out the box?

The AI will have to be taught that GAs can build improvements, it's more Ilteroi's domain though.

 

[azum4roll]

The code assumes that GREAT_PEOPLE_DIRECTIVE_USE_POWER only builds Citadels (see CvPlayerAI::GetDirectiveGeneral()). It works for Khan because Ordo shares the same build requirement, but an Ottoman general can build both Citadel and Tersane, and will need extra logic to determine which to build. Similarly for Oppidum, by the way. I don't think the AI can choose to build Oppidum with generals.

Great Admiral currently can only use Voyage of Discovery (not even the heal).

Maybe the AI should ignore the culture bomb property of Tersane (it's rarely effective anyway) and just use GREAT_PEOPLE_DIRECTIVE_CONSTRUCT_IMPROVEMENT to build. That should pass the improvement to BuilderTaskingAI which is @KungCheops's domain.

TacticalAIHelpers::ExecuteUnitAssignments() will need to be updated to allow wartime build, but that's probably not necessary?

 

[hokath]

Those are some really interesting findings, nice!