[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Poland - Remove Pancerni, add Cichociemni

[CppMaster]

Many civilizations had pilots. Very few had mountain farms.

Yeah and many civilizations had archers and knights also, but so what?

 

[CppMaster]

How about just Dywizjon 303 as a name then?

 

[azum4roll]

Yeah and many civilizations had archers and knights also, but so what?

And we don't have UUs that are literally "Archer" and "Knight" in their respective languages, do we?

I'm not surprised if there actually are

 

[CppMaster]

And we don't have UUs that are literally "Archer" and "Knight" in their respective languages, do we?

I'm not surprised if there actually are

I don't know and frankly I don't care, because I don't translate it anyway. Why would I?

 

[adan_eslavo]

@pineappledan What do you think about Kosynierzy?
They were introduced in this modmod, but funny thing is they were a Lancer replacement.

 

[pineappledan]

@pineappledan What do you think about Kosynierzy?
They were introduced in this modmod,

I think they’re a cool little piece of history, but they are peasants with war scythes in a time when nations were fielding line infantry with rifles and bayonets. How would they appear in civ 5 and not look/feel really weak?

I kind of imagine them as some sort of unique partisan(?) or a weak unit that is produced when you build other units, or is generated automatically based on how many enemies occupy your land or something.

I think adhering to the real history of the unit will be awkward, but doable; I don’t know if it would be fun though. Maybe it would create weird incentives.

funny thing is they were a Lancer replacement.

That is because lancers in vanilla are really weird. They aren’t part of the mounted line; they are the start of the anti-mounted/armor line, and upgrade into anti-tank gun.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I think they’re a cool little piece of history, but they are peasants with war scythes in a time when nations were fielding line infantry. How would they appear in civ 5 and not look/feel really weak?

I kind of imagine them as some sort of unique partisan(?) or a weak unit that is produced when you build other units, or is generated automatically based on how many enemies occupy your land or something.

I think adhering to the real history of the unit will be awkward, but doable; I don’t know if it would be fun though. Maybe it would create weird incentives.

That is because lancers in vanilla are really weird. They aren’t part of the lancer line, they are the start of the anti-mounted/armor line, and upgrade into anti-tank gun.

They could be nice theme for UA part. Like @gwennog's Basque, sort of. Very rare and specific unit, beside standard UUs.

 

[OneFuriousDon]

@CppMaster Admitting you're from Poland (as am I) and saying you've never heard of Cichociemni is - I'm sorry - actually very sad.
@adan_eslavo I can basically agree with everything you said. However throughout the history of Poland the only noticable military unit/formation were, whether we like it or not, Winged Hussars. Entire Europe not only recognized them but acually feared to the point that sometimes opponents would simply run for their lives on the very sight of them.
@pineappledan I agree with you with your perception of Kosynierzy - imho even though they are unique to Poland I also do not view them as anything but a fun historical unit. Could spawn as partisans but I'm not sure would that be worth the overall effort.
Lastly - Dywizjon 303. Unit - ridiculous. UA? For a fighter could be actually quite reasonable.

 

[CppMaster]

Dywizjon 303. Unit - ridiculous.

Could you elaborate?

 

[OneFuriousDon]

@CppMaster Certainly. 303 was a subunit of RAF. The only difference was ~99% of them (yes, not even full 100) were of Polish origin (there was at least 1 Canadian and 1 Czechoslovakian). And on top of that they were flying British planes. Why would 303 Polish Fighter Squadron be any better than any other randomly chosen XYZ nonPolish Fighter Squadron? There was nothing unique about it apart from the fact they were more determined to kill Nazis and did that more ferociously (having in mind what had happened to Poland was highly motivational). It's like creating a unique Marine unit for USA but only out of one battalion. I agree there is a possibility that such battalion in real life exceeds in something specific but overall it's no different from any other. That is why I'd strongly lean towards unique ability of a regular fighter rather than unique unit. It's simply out of historical honesty.

 

[CppMaster]

unique ability of a regular fighter rather than unique unit.

Yeah, that's why I was thinking about unique promotion for fighters.

 

[OneFuriousDon]

Yeah, that's why I was thinking about unique promotion for fighters.

However as this discussion is about adding something to Poland I myself would lean (out of all above possibilities) towards Pancerny. Armored Companion (Towarzysz Pancerny) is both thematically and historically correct. Also it is distinct enough to be justifiably added into game as UU. "Kosynier" as UU would be justified as well HOWEVER it was mostly peasant rabble equipped with scythes so what would you make out of them? Unit with UA being weak defence and attack values? But that is only my personal opinion.

 

[hawat]

If we want to keep cavalry unit, then looking in terms of uniqueness and reputation in neighbouring countries, I think the Pancerni were behind to the Lisowczycy. I think this formation was more recognisable. Among other things, they were Poland's informal participant in the Thirty Years' War, which is sometimes referred as the first relief of Vienna. Then we can give them a pillage promotion with no turn costs and maybe 1 extra movement.

 

[azum4roll]

Then we can give them a pillage promotion with no turn costs and maybe 1 extra movement.

Then you've replicated the Comanche Riders.

 

[hawat]

Ok, thanks, I have no knowledge of all units - I play very occasionally only with Poland I just wanted to give a good representation of the character of the unit

 

[OneFuriousDon]

If we want to keep cavalry unit, then looking in terms of uniqueness and reputation in neighbouring countries, I think the Pancerni were behind to the Lisowczycy. I think this formation was more recognisable. Among other things, they were Poland's informal participant in the Thirty Years' War, which is sometimes referred as the first relief of Vienna. Then we can give them a pillage promotion with no turn costs and maybe 1 extra movement.

They were half-mercenaries and half-bandits who sometimes fought for Poland and sometimes for Austria. They were condemned and put on trial after the pillage of a Polish city. Who are you going to propose next? SB or just ORMO?
"Lisowczycy" would make a decent unit only for barbarians...

 

[hawat]

Comparing Lisowczycy with SB or ORMO is ridiculous... They fought mostly for Poland and only few times for Austria, just because Poland wanted to intervene informally. Like it or not, they are part of our history as an "effect" of the political system and a number of other social factors. I'm not trying to glorify them. My proposal was to reflect the character of the unit. Operating in the rear, pillaging and forcing the enemy to disperse their forces. War is not only about honourable duels, valour and glory. it is also about blood, despair and death, civilians included. Unless we are talking about the Salvation Army.

 

[OneFuriousDon]

Comparing Lisowczycy with SB or ORMO is ridiculous... They fought mostly for Poland and only few times for Austria, just because Poland wanted to intervene informally. Like it or not, they are part of our history as an "effect" of the political system and a number of other social factors. I'm not trying to glorify them. My proposal was to reflect the character of the unit. Operating in the rear, pillaging and forcing the enemy to disperse their forces. War is not only about honourable duels, valour and glory. it is also about blood, despair and death, civilians included. Unless we are talking about the Salvation Army.

Yes it is. It's called sarcastic exaggeration. And yes, they are a part of history but I don't feel like promoting bandits as we have more to offer to the Civ community as Poland.

 

[hawat]

Even sarcastic exaggeration has a limit.
So we had few proposals. My list of top 3 in this moment in descending order is:
1. Cichociemni
2. Pancerni
3. Dywizjon 303

 

[adan_eslavo]

History, politics, tensions, even here on the forum .

I guess we should stay with what we have. Gameplay wise, and the most neutral unit.