[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC - Russia - UB's changes, New Cossack Promotion

[Pipiskus]

Current Pogost UB:
UB - Pogost (replaces Customs House):

Available at Guilds
350 Production Cost
+2 Culture and +2 Gold
Gains +2 Science at Banking
Gains +2 Food at Economics
Gains +2 Production at Railroad
Gains +2 Faith at Industrialization
+1 Gold and Production to Villages and Towns
1 Merchant Specialist Slot
+4/2 Gold to all Trade Routes to/from this city respectively
Tobacco Resources gain +3
Coffee Resources gain +1 +2
Tea Resources gain +2 +1
Banana Resources gain +2

Proposed Pogost UB:

UB - Pogost (replaces Customs House):

Available at Guilds
350 Production Cost
+2 Culture and +2 Gold
Gains +2 Faith at Printing press
Gains +2 Food at Economics
Gains +2 Tourism at Architecture
Gains +2 Production at Railroad
+2 Food and Faith to Villages and Towns
Gain 25% of City's Yields whenever a Citizen is born in the city or in the Capital
+2/2 Gold to all Trade Routes to/from this city respectively
1 Merchant Specialist Slot
Tobacco Resources gain +3
Coffee Resources gain +1 +2
Tea Resources gain +2 +1
Banana Resources gain +2

Current Ostrog UB:

Spoiler Image :

Proposed Ostrog UB:
Make nearby Strategic Resources give +2 Science
Remove +1Production and Gold to Camps, Mines, Lumber Mills, and Strategic Resources entirely
Add new effect: +1% and +1% Border Growth for every tile between this city and the Capital,
up to 25% for both Production and Border Growth
Leave the rest as it is.

Current Cossack UU:

Spoiler Cossack :

Proposed Cossack UU:
All the same with new promotion:
Territorial: Gain 25 Border growth Points after every attack for the least expanded non-puppet city (Cant be kept on Upgrade)

NEEDS ICON​

Rationale for all of the changes:
UNDER CONSTRUCTION


Compatible with (8-36e) Licorne nerf

 

[azum4roll]

+1.5% for every tile between this city and the capital

Not impossible to implement (via Times1000 columns instead of Times100), but we usually stay away from decimal percentages. Also this kind of thing needs a cap.

 

[Pipiskus]

I just thought that there are not that many faith generation building, so just %1 may be too low. I may be wrong though.
Need some feedback from the community, please leave your comments

 

[pineappledan]

My rendition. Comments below.

Spoiler Proposed UA :

Proposed UA: Nakaz
All Strategic Resource deposits provide double their normal quantity.
Culture cost of acquiring new tiles, Policy Culture cost and technology Science cost penalties for new cities are all reduced by 25%.

• culture/science costs increase by 5% on standard settings, so Russia's costs would increase by 3.75% per city

Spoiler Proposed Pogost :

UB - Pogost (replaces Customs House):

Available at Guilds​

350 Production Cost​

+2 Culture and +2 Gold​

Gains +2 Science at Banking​

Gains +2 Food at Economics​

Gains +2 Production at Railroad​

Gains +2 Faith at Industrialization​

1 Merchant Specialist Slot​

+2/2 Gold to all Trade Routes to/from this city respectively​

+1 Gold and Production to Villages and Towns​

Gain 25 Science whenever your borders expand, Scaling with Era​

Tobacco Resources gain +3​

Coffee Resources gain +1 +2​

Tea Resources gain +2 +1​

Banana Resources gain +2​

Spoiler Proposed Ostrog :

Spoiler Existing Ostrog :

Proposed Changes to UB:

Change bonus to Nearby Strategic Resources from +1 Production and Gold to +2 Science​

Remove +1 Production and Gold to Camps, Mines and Lumber Mills​

Add +1% for every tile between this city and the capital, up to +25%​

Justifications:

• Enlightened Absolutism and Nakaz are basically the same thing, except Nakaz is a specific treatise written by Catherine the Great describing her own ideas on enlightened absolutism. So, in addition to being shorter, it's also more specific to Russia and Catherine.
• -50% expansion penalty is nuts. A little back of the napkin math suggests this would make Russia 20% more efficient on both culture and science at 10 cities compared to another civ, and the numbers get bigger with more cities. We don't know what the right number is without testing but we at least know it's not 50%
• reducing the border expansion from 33% to 25% allows the text to be shorter, and makes room for the new expansion reduction ability.
• The on border expansion is moved to Pogost. This means that Russia's early science engine will mostly be gone, but will come back in medieval. The change to how border growth yields works even if you can't claim a new tile means that even a later yield bonus on tile claim can be relevant.
• The yields from tech are still there, but reduced greatly, from a final total of +3 to All Yields (18 yields per turn), down to +2 to All Yields (+12 per turn). This makes room for the border expansion bonus and makes the pogost a bit less of a big dumb yield battery.
• I also removed the trade bonus, which just seemed superfluous. Russia isn't really a trade civ.
• Adding the distance bonus to both the Ostrog and Pogost seems unnecessary to me. I think it detracts from the uniqueness of both. Also a % Faith modifier is unlikely to give much in satellite cities that are distant from your core, no matter what you set the % modifier to.
• Added a cap of 25% to the Ostrog. You don't want this thing going up to 50% production or more, that has caused us so much grief trying to balance Germany already. No reason to duplicate that here.

 

[Chippy Smith]

I apologize for asking if it's been answered elsewhere, but does someone else have post a proposal for this for it to be considered? I think this looks closer to ideal, though I worry the new UA may still be quite strong.

My rendition. Comments below.

 

[rkkn]

My rendition. Comments below.

Spoiler Proposed UA :

Proposed UA: Nakaz
All Strategic Resource deposits provide double their normal quantity.
Culture cost of acquiring new tiles, Policy Culture cost and technology Science cost penalties for new cities are all reduced by 25%.

• culture/science costs increase by 5% on standard settings, so Russia's costs would increase by 3.75% per city

This would be terrible. It would make Russia the only civ with essentially nothing unique until medieval. And late medieval at that.

The UA technically is working right away, but it's really a mid to late game scaling thing. You need several cities for it to do anything significant. When you have 5 cities it's an effective +4% science and culture. Essentially nothing. About on par with "Starting in classical era, gain +1 science and culture in the capital." with the +1 growing to +2 or 3 by late classical if you expand a lot.

The border growth part is less insignificant, but still pretty insignificant. 25% less growth cost is not even 25% more tiles, since cost increases. ie you get your cost increases faster. Like how getting a free great person is way better than getting enough GPP to get the great person. Your cities will have 1 or 2 extra tiles by medieval.
And furthermore! You have incentive to *not* grow your borders. Since the cost increases, and you will start getting science on growth later on, every border growth you get slows down the science you'll get later.

 

[pineappledan]

Yup, this version of Russia would be a slow starter. Really strong components and an ability that ramps up a lot with empire size.

If that doesn’t sound fun then we shouldn’t change Russia UA like this, but the tempo would be very unlike other science civs, so I thought it was worth exploring. I really like the ostrog redesign though, the current improvement bonuses are really boring and the distance bonus is way cooler.

 

[azum4roll]

I don't think the current Russian UA needs a change (apart from the name which I have no opinion of, and should be a separate proposal IMO). It's already balanced and interesting enough to warrant mixed policy tree approach.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't think the current Russian UA needs a change (apart from the name which I have no opinion of, and should be a separate proposal IMO). It's already balanced and interesting enough to warrant mixed policy tree approach.

100% agree. I think the border growth is much more interesting than a simple (bigger is even more yields approach).

 

[Pipiskus]

What if i add culture on borders expand to proposed UA and add the same science on borders expand (but at half amount from original UA) for Pogost, would it still be worse compared to the old UA?
i am not 100% sure what people wanna see from this civ, i want to find some balance between cultural and science sides, but it seems people love science buff a little too much.

 

[Stalker0]

What if i add culture on borders expand to proposed UA and add the same science on borders expand (but at half amount from original UA) for Pogost, would it still be worse compared to the old UA?
i am not 100% sure what people wanna see from this civ, i want to find some balance between cultural and science sides, but it seems people love science buff a little too much.

why are you so gung-ho to change the original UA? What is really wrong with it? Its unique, flavorful, hits Russia's theme on really sprawling land, tends to create a very unique xmas tree strategy with your initial policy. you mentioned you wanted to encourage more expansion....but realistically expansion is the BEST way to get more border growth. Growth costs increase exponentially with each tile, it is far far far easier to get more borders with a new city than pushing more borders on an old one. So that incentive is already there.

 

[Pipiskus]

Russia should have access to more than just one victory type, it doesnt represent my country well, we were not that technologically advanced throughout the history, but were rather always trying to catch up and at one moment before 1917 revolution, Russia had one of the fastest growing economies in the world and i wanted to replicate the same effect with new UA to make it not just about the border expand (though i still left this possibility for pogost) but a longplay wide setling strategy that would pay off under any circumstances. But it seems the dopamine from instant yields is much stronger, and i kinda get it, current Russia is also fun to play, but looking at AI winrates statistics makes me sad

 

[Chippy Smith]

Proposed Cossack UU:

All the same with new promotion:
Territorial: Gain Border growth Points after every three successful attacks for 1 out of 3 nearest cities(randomly) (Cant be kept on Upgrade)

NEEDS ICON​

How many Border Growth points would your Cossack grant when the promotion triggers?

I think giving the Pogost instant yields on Citizen Birth is cool, encouraging Russia to settle new cities which can grow quickly. The timing of such a bonus is flavorful, giving Russia a reason to expand it's borders starting at late Medieval, which not every Civ has innately. Conquest -> Raze and settle would also tie into this theme if I'm not mistaken. Pioneers and Colonists do not grant a free Customs House, which would help slow expansion down somewhat.

 

[Pipiskus]

I see what you are trying to do here, but in my opinion the main focus for Russia should be its ability to choose her playstyle, and all yields buff would help with it, like nothing else would, but you certainly made me question my +1% for expanded tiles, though. Is it better to encourage expansion and settling new cities, or reward for the tiles that you already own? Or combine these two paradigms into one big buff with both bonuses to expanded and owned tiles? This is a hard question but if we narrow it down to pure numbers, if you ought to use expanded tiles, you wouldnt receive any bonuses for you first ring and two additional rings equals to 30 tiles in total, which would give us +15% yields (with current per 2 tiles rate) if you build pogost immediately (which is not possible, the buff would be even less for cities founded at the start of the game) , on the other hand if we use owned tiles method, than you would get bonus from all three ring which equals to 36 and gives you 18% to all Yields guaranteed. This is really hard problem to solve, i havent played the game for long time, so i cannot fully fathom is it really that much or not, but here is some solutions that i came up with for this matter:

1) +1% : to all city's Yields for every 2 expanded tiles and every 5 owned tiles(7% buff at third radius)
2) +1% : to all city's Yields for every 2 (or should it be 3) owned tiles (18 or 12% guaranteed buff at third ring radius)
3) Leave tile buff the same but give additional 5% to the pop bonus or make it also give yields for every citizen born in the capital too
4) Combine 2nd and 3rd soulutions
5) There is no problem and i am just wasting time.

Now about Cossack promotion, to be honest i dont really know the answer either, but considering that Mongol UB giveS +2 BGP every turn i guess 10 or 15 should be fine, but iam not sure as always and need some consultment.
Write your comments people

 

[Chippy Smith]

Now about Cossack promotion, to be honest i dont really know the answer either, but considering that Mongol UB giveS +2 BGP every turn i guess 10 or 15 should be fine, but iam not sure as always and need some consultment.
Write your comments people

If giving border points on attack is something that is desired to encourage aggression, then i think having the Ostrog grant a promotion to all units built in city that gives Border Points on kill equal to 1/4 combat strength of enemy to nearest city would work best, though I don't think it's particularly necessary. With the new Border Growth changes, Tall Russia is possible, though I imagine Russia will still want to expand expand expand, so they don't need an incentive to go to war. If your intention is to make the Cossacks more flavorful/stronger, then I think granting the Cossack a promotion that gives Border Points equal to 1/3 of the damage delt to enemies to the nearest city works too.

As an aside/tangent, there was an old mod that allowed units to claim tiles. It happened instantly; I would change it to require some time fortified on them without taking damage. This would work with enemy tiles, requiring war or open borders. The unit had to be adjacent to your territory, and the tile not within enemy Zone of Control. I always found this mechanic interesting, and the mod gave it to every civ. While it may outside the scope of this thread and congress, I don't think this idea is unbalanced if and only if it was slowed down, requiring more turns. Assuming the AI can understand it, it may be an interesting addition/option to VP proper. If it was in VP proper, than I could see Russia claiming tiles with units faster as either as a promotion granted by a UB, part of its UA, or as an ability of its UU. A bonus to either speed or a successful claim by a unit. I digress. Here's the mod in question for anyone curious. I played it with VP years ago, around 2018, and I would be surprised if it is compatible with 4.9, but the thread has visuals to help explain the idea: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/hex-conquer-and-release.485036/

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Dont remove the yields from border expansion from the UA, that is a crime against humanity. That is the only thing I really care about.

 

[Chippy Smith]

Dont remove the yields from border expansion from the UA, that is a crime against humanity. That is the only thing I really care about.

Pineappledan moves it to a medieval building. I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Pineappledan moves it to a medieval building. I agree with your sentiment wholeheartedly.

Yes which makes it pretty much pointless. It is a unique mechanic that only matters if it is there from the get go, because then you can center a lot of your choices around that ability. You wont pick god of the expanse for some yields post medieval era.

 

[msw1]

Yeah I love the science from expanding and don't want that to go. Maybe the reduced increased policy/technology cost could be moved onto one of the UBs in place of one of their effects? Then it would come into play at a point in the game where it's actually useful.

So for instance, since I think there was some criticism of the pogost being uninteractive, maybe the pogost could lose its flat yields and gain something like -1.25% policy and technology cost in its place. So if you have pogosts in all your cities, the policy and technology cost increase per city would be just 3.75% instead of 5%. I have no idea about the history of these buildings though, so maybe the pogost would have to be changed to something else.

 

[Chippy Smith]

I think a reduction to the penalties for settling too many cities is strong and boring. There is already considerable incentive for any civ to expand as much as they can as quick as they can. How much and how fast is impacted by land and neighbors. Russia's bonus on border growth also further encourages this. A flat enabler of expansion, early and often, seems better suited for civs like the Shoshone, Huns, or other civs with a focus in bonuses that occur in the early game. Giving Russia both bonus on Border Growth as well as less opportunity cost when settling new cities seems too much too early for them, and restricts what can be done with their UBs, which currently come at late Medieval/early Renaissance, and the rest of their UA. Aside from it not suiting Russia, the bonus itself is just uninteresting, rewarding player/AI for what they would already do. I don't think the ability to reduce the increased cost of techs/policies unilaterally should be in the game as a Civ exclusive ability.

If it Russia has to have a UA like the one in pinnappledan's proposal, then I would suggest giving a cap to the penalty instead of an overall reduction. Either "Your owned City penalty towards Policies and Technologies is capped at -55%," or "Any City found after the Renaissance Era incur a -3% penalty towards Policies and Technologies instead of -5%." I think both of these weaker forms of the UA still require the bonuses with border growth to be removed.