[DLL] (8-NS) Celt Pantheon Identity Rework - Triggered Yields / Tile and Improvement Yields

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invar

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Original - (8-10) 4UC Celts
This proposal affects only the UA's Pantheons, and assumes the following are unchanged:
- UA (no religious pressure or pressures, +3 :c5faith: on city following pantheon)
- UI (Oppidum)
- UB (Ceilidh Hall)
- UUs (Pictish Warrior, Scythed Chariot)

However, as this is intended to be an identity rework focusing only on their pantheons, it may mesh with other proposals. Almost any other changes to their kit (UA faith generation in city, UA inability to spread or receive faith pressure, UUs, UB, or UI) that do not affect the pantheons directly would not conflict with the purpose of this counterproposal.

This counterproposal could fit alongside the base proposal (8-10) without any adjustments to the original proposal.
This proposal would work alone, or alongside (8-10a), (8-10b), (8-10c).
This proposal would not be compatible with (8-10e) or (8-10g) as they directly affect pantheons.

Summary
The Celtic identity is "Pick your UA after your start" but the options provided are not cohesive. Functionally, you could play another civ with a specific base pantheon and have an identical game. However, the Celt's building (Ceilidh Hall) and their improvement (Oppidum) both encourage the generation of great people.

To remedy this, I propose a pantheon rework keeping some theming to match the members in Tuatha De.
This proposal is a revamp that's better suited for the position and types of other civilizations in the game rather than just your start bias, with triggered yields as the driving factor. This mirrors a common theme that has come and gone in their past pantheons that the community has previously shown interest in.
I kept the pantheons simple to prevent bloat in the pantheon list, while still providing the complexity a UU combined with a Pantheon should give.

Since these pantheon changes are drastic, instead of small, I will not be side-by-side comparing them with the existing pantheons. I've split the table into columns by the type of bonus provided in each pantheon for legibility.

Please provide feedback on the Ceilidh Hall bonuses, as they are not calculated and will likely need balancing - I set them to multiples of three due to the Celt faith's theme of Trinity gods. This is also why most pantheons have three types of yields. They are all configured to scale through the game to prevent overly oppressive starts, but also reduce "dead engine" scenarios in mid or late game.

(8-10f) Celt Trigger Pantheons​

Pantheon
Trigger Yield
Great Person
Ceilidh Hall
Dagda, the All-Father+10:c5science::c5gold: on new :c5citizen:, scaling with Era+3:c5greatperson: Great Scientist points on :c5capital:Capital+18% Growth on Ceilidh Hall
Epona, the Great Mare+10:c5culture::c5food: on Border Expansion, scaling with Era+3:c5greatperson: Great Engineer points in :c5capital:Capital+6 Border Growth on Ceilidh Hall
Manannan, Son of the Sea+80:c5gold::c5culture: on (any) Trade Route completion, scaling with Era+3:c5greatperson: Great Merchant points in :c5capital:Capital+15% :c5culture: Culture on Ceilidh Hall
Morrigan, the Great Queen+10:c5goldenage::c5culture: on Pillage, scaling with era, and
150% :c5strength: as :c5goldenage::c5culture: on Unit Kill
+3:c5greatperson: Great General points in :c5capital:Capital+6:c5goldenage: on Ceilidh Hall
Brigid, the Healer and Smith+30 :c5goldenage::c5food::c5culture: when gaining a Technology, scaling with Era+3:c5greatperson: Great Scientist points in :c5capital:Capital+9% :c5science: Science on Ceilidh Hall
Ogma, the Learned+60 :tourism::c5science: when gaining a Policy or Ideology Tenant, scaling with Era+3:c5greatperson: Great Merchant points in :c5capital:Capital+15% :c5culture: Culture on Ceilidh Hall
Nuada, the Silver Handed+90:c5production::c5food: on building a Wonder, scaling with Era+3:c5greatperson: Great Engineer points in :c5capital:Capital+6:tourism: on Ceilidh Hall
Lugh, the Talented+18:c5gold::c5production: when first constructing a Tile Improvement, scaling with Era+3:c5greatperson: Great General points in :c5capital:Capital+9% :c5production: Production on Ceilidh Hall

Minor adjustments welcome as I am unfamiliar with many exploits and cheese available with triggered yields.

*Edits - Legibility, missing icons.
Yield changes discussed in the thread
Clarified remainder of kit in proposal and conflicts with other proposals.
 
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I like the direction. The numbers on many of them look little low to me though. Overall I agree this is a direction we should be headed wrt the unique pantheon ability.
 
In your vision, how do you think a player should be choosing their pantheon?
In general, or with these pantheon options?

In general, pantheons should be selected based on which one will secure you a religion if you can get one, or the best yields until you're blown over by a neighbor's religion if you don't believe you'll get a religion. The Celts don't have this option due to their UA. Instead, they get a guaranteed pantheon of their choice from a limited set that functionally acts as "choose your optimal UA after the game starts."

With this proposal, your pantheon should be chosen based on the opposing civilizations' attitudes, playstyles, and proximity. My other proposal (8-10f - over here) provides pantheons that should be chosen based on surrounding tiles and resources.

8-10g (this one) provides more dopamine, more risk-reward, and a little gameplay strategizing.
8-10f (the other one) provides more consistent yields and gameplay, with two backups in case you are unable to claim territory moderately amicably.


I like the direction. The numbers on many of them look little low to me though. Overall I agree this is a direction we should be headed wrt the unique pantheon ability.

Thank @Flamingcheesepie for his inspiration in the discord channel. I personally dislike triggered yields as they do not count towards local needs, can be opposed by opposing players in multiple ways other than "invade with troops", often have an opportunity for cheese or exploit, can be inconsistent even within a single game... But getting big numbers at the start of a turn is just plain neat!
 
MAGI: @invar few organizational points
1) you're only allowed 1 counterproposal thread for a given civ, please use this one, I've vetoed the other
If you preferred the other one let me know and I'll switch them. If you want people to have a choice between the two, you need someone else to propose it for you.
2) please link to the original thread at the start of your post
3) The proposal must be complete so it would be helpful to specify what you want with the other components. If you don't we'll assume the ones from the base 4UC proposal are fine.
 
+30 :c5production::c5food: when gaining a Technology, scaling with Era
Production will go to Capital. Tech unlocks happen reasonably frequently, so this will probably (easily) lead to every building being built in the capital and then some.
Perhaps a different yield is preferable.
If you want this then it is perhaps better suited to Policy unlock or Wonder creation, since they are rarer triggers. Wonder creation makes maybe the most sense since you have probably built in the Capital and delayed other things, so this steroid help you catch up?
 
MAGI: @invar few organizational points...
First time post, thanks for the heads up
1.) Fixed. Prefer the other one but believe the community will enjoy this one better.
2.) Fixed.
3.) That was the right assumption, I added detail in case multiple proposals go up.

Production will go to Capital. Tech unlocks happen reasonably frequently, so this will probably (easily) lead to every building being built in the capital and then some.
Perhaps a different yield is preferable.
If you want this then it is perhaps better suited to Policy unlock or Wonder creation, since they are rarer triggers. Wonder creation makes maybe the most sense since you have probably built in the Capital and delayed other things, so this steroid help you catch up?
Oof, yeah, that's a point. I do know techs happen frequently, but you do get an average of 10 techs per era (~50 turns) and tried to spitball how much total yields that should be for a pantheon and a UA together.

Policy Unlock and Tech gain should provide a global resource bonus, which leaves it with any combination of :c5culture::c5gold::c5goldenage::c5happy::c5science::tourism: on those two. You may be able to get away with :c5food: on it. Can't really do :c5science: on researching tech, nor could you go :c5culture: on gaining a policy/ideology.
 
The tile improvement trigger yields are too low, but you can't increase it either because it'll lead to exploits of complete Fort -> start Farm/Mine for 1 turn -> repeat when your workers have nothing to do. Better change that to something else.
 
Here's a not necessarily complete list of existing tables
Spoiler :

1721092595240.png

YieldFromConstruction seems a reasonable replacement
 
With this proposal, your pantheon should be chosen based on the opposing civilizations' attitudes, playstyles, and proximity.
This is what I was looking for. Do you believe your proposed abilities are differentiated based on your neighbours, instead of being just an arbitrary choice by the player?
 
This is what I was looking for. Do you believe your proposed abilities are differentiated based on your neighbours, instead of being just an arbitrary choice by the player?

I do not believe you're forced to pick one over any of the others, no, but I do believe that based on the scenario of your start you will have one or two "best options" and one or two additional "can make it work" options.

Then again, due to the way I play the game (mixed human/ai opponents) compared to how others play the game, it may be more arbitrary than I believe. Do you have any thoughts on this?
 
I do not believe you're forced to pick one over any of the others, no, but I do believe that based on the scenario of your start you will have one or two "best options" and one or two additional "can make it work" options.

Then again, due to the way I play the game (mixed human/ai opponents) compared to how others play the game, it may be more arbitrary than I believe. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Maybe if you could give examples as to when you would choose one pantheon over all the others. The only one that seems, to me, to be dependent on which neighbors you have is Morgannon.
 
The tile improvement trigger yields are too low, but you can't increase it either because it'll lead to exploits of complete Fort -> start Farm/Mine for 1 turn -> repeat when your workers have nothing to do. Better change that to something else.
Here's a not necessarily complete list of existing tables

YieldFromConstruction seems a reasonable replacement
Changing to +18 on tile improvement construction, thanks for the find.

Also changing Brigid to :c5goldenage::c5food::c5culture: and putting :c5food::c5production: on Nuada (swapping the two but keeping a lil theming).
 
Maybe if you could give examples as to when you would choose one pantheon over all the others. The only one that seems, to me, to be dependent on which neighbors you have is Morgannon.
Better for Dense starts
- Aggressive warring neighbors, pick Morrigan. Maximize those yields because they'll make more troops total, quicker and more consistent access to pillage-able tiles
- Friendly culture- or science-heavy neighbors, pick Manannan. Borrow those juicy yields on trade routes that are less likely to be pillaged. Also benefit from mercantile city states nearby for their quest yields.

Better for Spacious starts
- Expansionist or aggressively forward-settling neighbors? Counter that with Epona, claim that juicy land, and get benefits while doing so!
- Not expansionist neighbors? Lugh will be your friend, improve what you need to in the order you most benefit from, not the order you're forced to due to border conflicts.

Better for Remote starts
- Dagda. No real bonuses for having competition, allows you to spam great person and great worker slots as the remote spots tend to not scale well (I'm looking at you Tundra, only-civ-on-the-island starts).

You're looking at a plane-jane mixed-bag of a game with a variety of neighbors not too far and not too close? Ogma or Brigid or Nuada, leverage the better option based on your monopoly and show 'em what's for.

If this was a trap to get me to fly a kite for you to poke holes in, I will never forgive you.
 
I assume you have chosen the base components as the rest of the kit?
For this proposal, yes.

In case there are questions in the future, this proposal would work alone, or alongside (8-10a), (8-10b), (8-10c).
This proposal would not be compatible with (8-10e) as it directly affects pantheons.

Updating the head to contain this information.
 
+18:c5gold::c5production: when first constructing a Tile Improvement, scaling with Era
Please clarify:
- First time constructing a specific improvement on any tile?
- First time constructing any improvement on a specific tile?
- First time constructing a specific improvement on a specific tile?
- Whenever constructing an improvement (i.e., not on repair)?
 
Any tile, first time building a non-road improvement, not on repair, not on replace, no specific improvement
 
Any tile, first time building a non-road improvement, not on repair, not on replace, no specific improvement
That doesn't make it any more clear.

So is it the first time any improvement is built on that tile, or the first time for each improvement, or any time an improvement is built? If you build a Farm, then a Mine, then a Village, do you get yields each time? Do you get yields if you build a Farm and then replace it with a Village and then replace it with a Farm again?
 
The first time you build any improvement on that tile, you get the trigger. Farm here, Mine elsewhere, village a third spot = 3 triggers. Mine here, replace with village replace with farm again = 1 trigger on first farm completion.
 
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