[DLL] (8-NS) China rework

[Rosete]

Base proposal:

[DLL] - (8-NS) 4UC China

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Chinese civilization.

forums.civfanatics.com

Current UA: Mandate of Heaven
CreatingGreat Works or gaining cities grants 5 turns of "We love the Empress" day, and a permanent +2 Food in all Cities. Bonus Yields decline by 50% on era change.

Proposed UA: TianMing (same name but native)
Sanctioned by World Congress. Can demand heavy tribute fromcity states without influence penalty.

Current UU:
Baochuan (replaces Frigate)
available at Astronomy
375 Production cost
28 CS
37 RCS
4 Movement
"Hull III"
"Kowtow" (+2 City-State Influence every turn if unit is within its borders)
Requires Iron

Proposed UU:
UM - Baochuan (replaces Frigate)
available at Astronomy
400 Production cost
28 CS
37 RCS
3 Movement
"Hull III"
"Treasure Voyages" (Expend this unit within a city state's border to fulfill one personal quest. Does not reward influence)
Requires Iron
Can't be bought

Rational:
I don't like that the current UA gets worse over time. And getting +2 food, aside from the early game, feels very meh. At some time during the mid game, once you've settled your core cities, you'd stop thinking about the UA; the bonus food doesn't matter all that much anymore. If you had managed to conquer a few cities, you're probably on your way to a perma WLTK day. So the UA soon became autopilot. Although I like that the current UA is trying to simulate a passing of dynasties throughout the ages, I think we can do better.

Tribute is a large part of China's diplomatic history. The tribute system embodies China's ethnocentricity. China doesn't need to seek out trading partners, any foreign statesments worth their salt knew they ought to Kowtow to China and offer tributes.

My proposed UA aimed to simulate that. This UA will give the civ plenty of yields throughout the game. By maintaining a large army, you can demand heavy tribute from CS without incurring any influence penalties. The percentage negative modifiers will still apply, so it won't be possible to constantly demand tribute from one CS turn after turn. Pledges of protection and ally modifiers will also make it more difficult to reach the heavy tribute threshold. The UA only works on heavy tribute, so if the CS has no quest, or you only meet the threshold for normal tribute, it won't work. It is possible to rotate your army around different CS to extract tribute from them. However, that will also mean that your defense may be weak elsewhere.

I think the UU can be pushed further. Zhenghe's expeditions was the stuff of legends, guy went all the way to East Africa! Baochuan were large treasure ships, and they have a powerful ability in Treasure Voyages, so the cost and movement speed needed to reflect that. They also cannot be bought, because that would create too much synergy with UA. The ability allowed China to gain yields from far flung CS where its armies could not reach, keeping in theme with Zhenghe's expedition. If there are 2 quests, then the one first offered is chosen, but I'm not married to this. Whichever way the quest is chosen that's most convenient for the devs is good with me.

Both proposed components do similar things, gain yields from completing CS quests. The UA I think it is fair to not reward influence for these actions. This way China will still have to engage with using diplomats to get allies.

For a powerful UA, I think it needs to have costs. China starts the game sanctioned, so no trading with other civs except for China's vassal. This restriction can be cleared when the World Congress is found, repeal sanction is proposed and won. This restriction is also keeping in theme with China's brand of isolationism and how they later opened to more trade.

 

[pineappledan]

Sanctions would also prevent all external trade routes. Is that intended?

Heavy tribute already liquidates quests and gives non-influence rewards. The unique baochuan action looks redundant with the UA. I’m not sure how emphasizing the same action twice helps China.

Also your description suggests the UU is expended, ie. it disappears after it performs its unique action. Many quest rewards will be less than the value of the ship itself, so that seems either like a bad idea or an unclear one.

 

[Rekk]

The World Congress doesn't exist for several eras. Seems like jank to be sanctioned by an entity that doesn't exist.

 

[Stalker0]

I don’t mind this concept but it’s such a different take on the civ…would it be better to just make a new mod mod civ rather than toss out the old one?

 

[Rosete]

Sanctions would also prevent all external trade routes. Is that intended?

Yes. China wouldn't be able to trade with anyone except for their vassals or ally CS. Others won't be able to trade with China either, unless they willingly offer themselves to be China's vassal.

Heavy tribute already liquidates quests and gives non-influence rewards. The unique baochuan action looks redundant with the UA. I’m not sure how emphasizing the same action twice helps China.

In the mid-late game you might be engaged in multi-front wars, either because you kept tributing CS, or because you've been raking up negative diplo modifiers from the sanction. In that case, you may be stuck with a sanction, and unable to tribute because you need to spread your army for defense. The UU allows you some "out" in that scenario.

You can choose when and where to send the UU. If the CS gave a trading quest (food reward), yea that's not worth at all. But if the CS gave a conquer city quest, 1 ship for 1 uber unit is pretty good. If CS give convert CS to religion and a discover most tech quest, you can clear the religion quest first to guarantee the reward you want. Sometimes a CS on the other side of the ocean gave a "convert most ppl quest", sending a bunch of your army that far isn't the best idea, so use the UU. You shouldn't try to spam out UU to clear out every quest, the ship is costly to produce at 400 hammer, and very slow at 3 move, so it is better to pick and choose.

Seems like jank to be sanctioned by an entity that doesn't exist.

It is more of a self sanction. I felt that there has to be some sort of malus given the UA, and this fits the theme. Another option can be "Can only trade with vassals or allied city states". This would accomplish largely the same thing. Main difference being other civs can still send trade routes to China, and it can never be removed.

 

[hokath]

Baochuan is a sensible improvement on the base proposal, but the UA...
I think you're probably worse off to be sanctioned than to be able to demand heavy tribute of your friends/allies. It's so wild I have no idea what the implications even are -- too big for this congress. I would really need to see the modmod implementation first to vote yes to this.

 

[pineappledan]

I don’t know why I wouldn’t just play Mongolia if I wanted to play a tribute-heavy game

 

[hokath]

^Or Zulu

 

[Urzamax]

The Sanction element of the UA seems both very hard to balance and massively unthematic--the Silk Road is famous for a reason!

 

[Rekk]

This would bring back a civ whose main contribution to the game is to stop anyone from getting a culture victory.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.