(8-WD) Arabia & Byzantium 4UC Swap

[Hinin]

Current : See pineappledan's proposals for 4UC Arabia and Byzantium here and there respectively.

Proposal :

- Swap the Arabian and Byzantine UA for the following results :

• Arabia - Seal of the Prophets - Can always found a Religion, receives one additional Belief when founding, and may select Beliefs present in other Religions. -15% Faith purchase costs, and may purchase unlocked Great People starting in the Classical Era.
• Byzantium - Queen of Cities - When you complete a Historic Event, gain +1 Science, Culture and Gold in the Capital. Converting a City to your main Religion for the first time or completing a Trade Route triggers a Historic Event.

- Change the rest of the two civs' kits for the following :

Arabia

UU1 - Guzat (replaces Heavy Skirmisher) => same art as Camel Archer
Unlocked at Currency (instead of Physics)
Doesn't require Horse
145 Production / 250 Faith (-30 Production / -50 Faith)

5 MP / 2 Vision
17 CS / 15 RCS / 1 Range (+0 / +1 / +0)

Withdraw before melee
Skirmisher Doctrine
Can move after attacking

Attack penalty against Cities
Attack penalty against Naval Units
No Terrain Defense
Cannot attack in Melee

UB1 - Suq (replaces Market) => Same art as Bazaar
Unlocked at Trade
110 Production cost

+3 Gold
+3 Food
+1 Science

Converts 10 % of Gold spent in the City into Food.
+1 Gold to Trade Routes coming to / from the City
Land Trade Routes from the City gain 50% range
+100% Pressure towards Cities connected by a Trade Route

+1 Gold / Food to Cinnamon / Sugar worked by the City

1 Merchant specialist

UU2 - Baghlah (replaces Caravel) => art by janboruta, from Oman civ

Unlocked at Compass
160 Production cost
Has no maintenance cost

4 MP / 2 Vision
26 CS (+1)

Can move after attacking - Lost upon upgrade
Pincer - +10% flanking attack bonus ; ignores ZOC

UB2 - Dar al-Shifa (replaces Grocer) => same art as the Bimaristan
Unlocked at Astronomy (instead of Chemistry) => same tech tier, but at the center for more versatility in the tech path
500 Production cost
4 GPT maintenance cost

+1 Happiness
+1 Food per 5 Citizens in the City

25 % of Food is carried over when a new Citizen is born in the City (instead of 15%)
+3 % Science and +1 CS in the City per excess Happiness in the city (caps at +15% Science and +5 CS)

Land Units in this City heal 5 hp per turn whatever their action.
+1 Yield from Specialists in the City

-1 Unhappiness from Poverty in the City

Byzantium

UU1 - Cataphract (replaces Knight)
Unlocked at Chivalry
175 Production / 300 Faith cost
Requires Horse
Mounted Unit

3 MP / 2 Vision (-1 / 0)
27 CS (+2)

Armor Plating I
Resilient - +10 HP ; always fight at full strength ; lost upon upgrade
Can move after attacking

No Terrain Defense
Attack penalty against Cities

UI - Aplekton (replaces Fort) => from DuskJockey's Byzantium

Unlocked at Engineering
Cannot be built adjacent to another Aplekton
Reveals tiles within 3 tiles (can be blocked by rough terrain)
+50% CS to defending Units

+1 Food
+1 Production
+2 Border Growth points
Gain the same yields if adjacent to a City and / or is on the path of a Trade Route (potential base yields : 3 Food / 3 Production / 6 Border Growth points)

Aplekton and your owned tiles adjacent to them cannot be claimed by rival culture bombs (no protection if pillaged)

Receives the same bonus yields from techs and policies as the Fort (and 1.5 the yields from the Military-Industrial Complexe Autocracy Tenet, since it is both a Fort and a unique improvement), plus the following tech bonuses :
- +1 Food / Production and +2 BGpoints at Banking ;
- +1 Food / Production and +2 BGpoints at Fertilizer ;
- +1 Food / Production and +2 BGpoints at Radio.

UU2 - Dromon (replaces Liburna)
Unlocked at Sailing
100 Production cost / 200 Faith cost

4 MP / 2 Vision
10 CS / 13 RCS / 1 Range (+3 / -3 / 0)

Dreadful - Reduces the Combat Strength of rival adjacent Units by 15%
Sea Fire - When attacking or defending in melee, inflicts the "In Flame" plague for 3 turns, increasing all damages received by 5.
Can move after attacking

Attack malus against Land Units
Cannot Melee Attack
Shallow Draft
Cannot end a Movement on an Ocean Tile

UNW - Hippodromos (replaces Circus Maximus)
Available at Metal Casting
80 Production cost (scaling with number of Cities in Empire) / No Citizen requirement
Must be built in the Capital
Provides 2 Horses

+3 Happiness (instead of +2)
+2 Gold per Citizen in the City

Convert 15% of the Culture of the City into Food.

+10% Culture and Gold during WLTKD in the City
Whenever a new WLTKD is triggered in the City, a Historic Event is triggered

+2 Gold to Arenas in the Empire.

-1 Unhappiness from Boredom

Rationale :
Ok... so, let's begin !

The original idea comes from a simple concept : the current UA bonus of Byzantium just goes so well with Arabia's imperial history, as did the Arabian current UA for Byzantium. As a consequence, I wanted to try to do something about this situation (which I did in my tweaks). Afterwards, ideas and reactions from other people gathered around this idea, and it also evolved in my head. The result is here for you to read.

Now, let's go piece by piece :
- Arabian UA : now previous Byzantium UA, without any change needed. It is powerful, flexible, and it shows well the impact Muhammad had on Arabian history (in so many ways).
- Byzantium UA : it has been nerfed on its most balance nightmare part (the GP part is just so snowbally it is difficult to conceive things around, so better axe it) and boosted in specific ways to allow for different strategies (the free Historic Event from Barbarian Encampment is not only thematic, it also allows Authority Byzantium to be a thing).

- Arabia UU1 (Guzat) : We have no early skirmisher unit in the early game, and having it at around the same time the Arabian religion should come online is thematic and it gives the civ a real springbox feeling. This, plus the lack of Horse requirement and the reduced cost, means that the unit shouldn't have much more combat power compared to the Heavy Skirmisher, or it would be oppressive. The Withdraw Before Melee part allows the unit to be survivable (and so gain more experience its in lifetime) and entrap enemy units which try to catch it without pushing the enveloppe too far.
- Arabia UB1 (Suq) : With the departure of the current UA from the Arabian kit, the Bazaar has to change. The idea there was to make the building a toolbox for the civ, with several bonuses that can be powerful when used correctly, but don't help the civ that much at first. The bonus Gold / Faith from followers of rival Religions not only punishes those who push the religious game too early against Arabia (for it will give the civ the Faith it lacks to gain its Prophet early), but also symbolizes pre-Islamic religious history in the region, and later the dhimmi presence within the Empire, with the advantages and challenges it represents historically and in term of gameplay (especially in case of conquests).
- Arabia UU2 (Baghlah) : Although I like the Hashemite Raider, I do think it comes too late to truly affect the game state. Arabian naval history, which had important effects on world history, was also underepresented, hence my choice for the Baghlah. In term of gameplay, it is a versatile (as is meant to be the rest of the Arabian kit) unit with lower economic burden (since it was used mostly as a commerce and pirate ship) and a wolfpack playstyle.
- Arabia UB2 (Dar al-Shifa) : Once againt meant to be versatile, this early version of the Hospital also comes with big advantages for those who balanced their economy well by offering potentially major Science and defensive bonuses. It is not flashy, but quite potent and rewarding.

- Byzantium UU1 (Cataphract) : Although powerful and interesting, I've always found the current version of the Cataphract a bit clunky : its minor bonus against Cities (-25% CS instead of -33% CS) takes design space for no interesting or impactful reason, and its bonus in flat terrain is so massive it creates a weird power spike for a unit that wants to be slow but reliable. I decided to go fully into the direction of a defensive knight (the kit is already geared towards playing tall and defensive) with the added bonus of providing surrounding units (especially ranged units) support to end the job (which allows the Byzantine front to be more stable) and some offensive power in flat terrain to still have our armored charge dream.
- Byzantium UI (Aplekton) : A mix of an original idea of mine and pineappledan's input, this improvement is meant to provide a direct counter to one of the most unfair ways an enemy can break the Byzantine turtle strategy while also giving some bonus yields (quite useful for new secondary cities), defense and good vision. With good technologies and policies, it can also become truly important in generating an important amount of science.
- Byzantium UU2 (Dromon) : I do find that, even in 4UC, the Dromon is a bit clunky. Its plague promotion, although interesting, is quite niche, and its one splash damage promotion alone isn't enough to make the difference I feel. This is why I decided to make the unit a true 1 range aoe terror with double the splash damage promotions and a terror aura, in exchange for reduced base ranged combat strength. Its availability at Education not only reflects how Greek Fire was a genuine (and genius) invention of the empire, but also synergizes with the civ's focus on specialists and allows the civ's power spike to be relevant on land and on the seas at the same time (I do find that, in this particular case, the two powerspikes don't stack too much, since they are on different parts of the battlefield and on units with quite different roles).
- Byzantium UB (Tetraconch) : In addition to providing the necessary faith to really push the civ into overdrive and scale throughout the game, I wanted to focus the building more on the theme of defensive scaling and helping the Capital. This Great Musician bonus, although a bit clunky I admit, is meant to provide this "wide specialist helping tall" strategy we dreamt about with pineappledan some time ago within a kit for which it totally makes sense.

So, that's all. As always, don't hesitate to express your opinions on the various ideas, and thanks for reading.

Edit 1 : Removed the Barbarian Encampment clearing bonus from Byzantium UA (too random) ; change the Tetraconch for the Hippodromos, and move the TRoute bonus of the building to the Arabian Suq ; limited the science + defense bonus of the Dar al-Shifa to +15% and +5 respectively ; added tech bonuses to the Aplekton.

Edit 2 : Replaced Faith with Gold in the Byzantine UA. Replaces Splash Damage I & II by a plague effect for the Dromon that increases flat damages received for afflicted enemies. Replaces the GP effect of the Hippodrome by a converter of Culture into Food (allowing the Byzantine capital to sustain itself from its cultural fame alone if used well). Changed Baghlah's free promotion from Skirmisher Doctrine to Pincer and reduced its base CS to compensate (ignore ZOC + movement after attack can be vicious) based on @azum4roll's review.

 

[hokath]

My Civ IV brain always thinks the late founding should be on Islam, so I am sympathetic to the idea.
However I do have comments and concerns,

Arabia

UU1 - Guzat (replaces Heavy Skirmisher) => same art as Camel Archer
Unlocked at Currency (instead of Physics)
Doesn't require Horse
145 Production / 250 Faith (-30 Production / -50 Faith)

5 MP / 2 Vision
17 CS / 15 RCS / 1 Range (+0 / +1 / +0)

Ok, so the early unlock is to line it up more with Religion, but it doesn't actually have any direct interaction right? (you aren't suggesting it can be bought with faith w/o Zealotry right?)
If it's earlier, and doesn't require horses, and also has Withdraw before Melee (maybe the most powerful, and definitely the most annoying, promotion) I think you have to at least make it slightly weaker than the base unit.
This thing looks menacing atm and I am scared of it.

+3 % Science and +1 CS in the City per excess Happiness in the city (caps at +30% Science and +10 CS)

30 percent. THIRTY!! This seems like an insane number, how are you justifying it? 10 excess happiness is easy to get tall, and even wide it's not so hard -- I make 1 or 2 public works
Normal effects would be like 10% science and only during WLTKD or a Golden Age.

UU2 - Baghlah (replaces Caravel)
Can move after attacking - Lost upon upgrade
Skirmisher Doctrine

Based design. I think this would be really fun and quite powerful.

Byzantium
Sad that with Dromon and Cataphract you cannot fit in Varangian Guard. Oh well.
I like Dromon AoE debuff more than the weird plague thing it has atm.

Converting a City to your main Religion for the first time, completing a Trade Route or clearing a Barbarian Encampment triggers a Historic Event.

You will need to specify the strength of these events before Azum reads this and goes on a rampage.
Re: bolded text, is this any kind of trade route (international and internal)? How does it interact with Caravansary etc? Stacks presumably?

UI - Aplekton

This thing ugly as heck on the map, imo. However the effect is nice.
Worker AI might needs some work because I remember the AI spamming this absolutely everywhere.

+1 Yield from Specialists in the City

As in the "base yield" same as Hospital effect?

 

[Hinin]

30 percent. THIRTY!! This seems like an insane number, how are you justifying it? 10 excess happiness is easy to get tall, and even wide it's not so hard -- I make 1 or 2 public works
Normal effects would be like 10% science and only during WLTKD or a Golden Age.

I agree that its potential is enormous. It was a concept more than anything else, but I will surely reduce it tomorrow.

You will need to specify the strength of these events before Azum reads this and goes on a rampage.

Well, historic events like normal historic events (finish a wonder, win a war, spawn a GP etc). There isn't more or less powerful types of events, just outside modifiers for tourism potentially or am I missing something ?

Re: bolded text, is this any kind of trade route (international and internal)? How does it interact with Caravansary etc? Stacks presumably?

It's like what the Bazaar did : it simply allows HE from completing Trade Routes to begin before Caravansary, without stacking.

As in the "base yield" same as Hospital effect?

Yep, but half of the hospital's amount, however given to cultural GP also.

 

[Hinin]

Ok, so the early unlock is to line it up more with Religion, but it doesn't actually have any direct interaction right? (you aren't suggesting it can be bought with faith w/o Zealotry right?)
If it's earlier, and doesn't require horses, and also has Withdraw before Melee (maybe the most powerful, and definitely the most annoying, promotion) I think you have to at least make it slightly weaker than the base unit.
This thing looks menacing atm and I am scared of it.

Fear the Camel !

The religion interaction is more about theme and timing than gameplay elements, true. I don't intend to charge the design more.

As for the power level. The unit right now has 1 more RCS more than the base unit, which can be scrapped easily. Seeing that all other early units have some kind of big power up nonetheless, I would like to wait before going below base unit combat values.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

English Ship of the Line also have Splash I and II, btw.

 

[hokath]

It's like what the Bazaar did : it simply allows HE from completing Trade Routes to begin before Caravansary, without stacking.

Ok that's important distinction. E.g. the zoo stacks on top I think the wording is like "trigger, or strengthens an existing, Historic Event"

There isn't more or less powerful types of events, just outside modifiers for tourism potentially or am I missing something ?

It turns out there is, and in 2 different ways You specify a strength (num of turns of yields) and then there is some black-magic backend (DLL coded per event) where it then calls a divisor.
Since barb camp doesn't currently exist you would have to give both numbers for that one.
Here is a link to Azum's post from last congress that explained it to me.

I would like to wait before going below base unit combat values.

Fair. Because they have withdraw I would probably drop the CS by 1. If you can catch them, you should kill them.

 

[ma_kuh]

Does Cataphract carry anything forward on upgrade?

its bonus in flat terrain is so massive it creates a weird power spike for a unit that wants to be slow but reliable

The massive flat-terrain CS for cataphract I always thought existed so that flat and trees+hills had the same CS bonus. .. Which, now that I think about it, seems kind of silly, the entire "thing" is that you can benefit from terrain bonuses to CS, but then you just get a free flat terrain boost too? Might as well just have "no terrain bonuses" and flat +25% CS then. (Yeah yeah forts and citadels, whatever.)

 

[Rekk]

Sad that with Dromon and Cataphract you cannot fit in Varangian Guard. Oh well.

Cataphract should be with Persia, anyway

 

[pineappledan]

The massive flat-terrain CS for cataphract I always thought existed so that flat and trees+hills had the same CS bonus. .. Which, now that I think about it, seems kind of silly, the entire "thing" is that you can benefit from terrain bonuses to CS, but then you just get a free flat terrain boost too? Might as well just have "no terrain bonuses" and flat +25% CS then. (Yeah yeah forts and citadels, whatever.)

Yes the existing cataphract bonuses approximate what you could have given the unit with armor plating I and saved everyone a bunch of hassle.

 

[ScarletArkyning]

+25 HP on the tetraconch seems insane. Just stack great works in border cities and turn them into fortresses that can’t even be scratched.

 

[msw1]

I think if Arabia's entire UA becomes centered around religion then the rest of their kit should connect to religion a little bit more. +1 faith per nonmajority follower on a unique market is not very much.

 

[azum4roll]

Yes the existing cataphract bonuses approximate what you could have given the unit with armor plating I and saved everyone a bunch of hassle.

It's basically Armor Plating II (tanks have I) + can fortify. But you can't do the latter without benefiting from defensive terrain.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

I would move Arabia’s GP purchase back to Medieval for appropriate theming, they werent exactly prominent during IRL Classical Era.

 

[azum4roll]

So, here's my opinion on each component (and the civs as a whole), other than the well-known fact that I don't want to change a perfectly fine kit:

Arabia - Seal of the Prophets - Can always found a Religion, receives one additional Belief when founding, and may select Beliefs present in other Religions. -15% Faith purchase costs, and may purchase unlocked Great People starting in the Classical Era.

This is just the current Byzantine UA. Its versatile nature means it should have no start bias, and receive the current personalities/flavors from Theodora.

UU1 - Guzat (replaces Heavy Skirmisher) => same art as Camel Archer
Unlocked at Currency (instead of Physics)
Doesn't require Horse
145 Production / 250 Faith (-30 Production / -50 Faith)

5 MP / 2 Vision
17 CS / 15 RCS / 1 Range (+0 / +1 / +0)

Withdraw before melee
Skirmisher Doctrine
Can move after attacking

Attack penalty against Cities
Attack penalty against Naval Units
No Terrain Defense
Cannot attack in Melee

The problem of early/alternate unlock is that the previous unit hasn't been obsoleted. The faith cost essentially doesn't matter, since you would always purchase Skirmishers and upgrade them into Guzat (at a cheaper cost and requiring a temporary horse).

17/15 stat in late classical makes them the strongest unit in both CS and RCS. It's slightly more expensive than a Swordsman (if produced as a Skirmisher and upgraded via gold), but can retreat from one and face tank a second one. I don't think anything can beat them as is.

UU2 - Baghlah (replaces Caravel) => art by janboruta, from Oman civ
[IMG width="144px" alt="Baghlah_UnitIcon256.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/baghlah_uniticon256-png.695327/[/IMG]
Unlocked at Compass
160 Production cost
Has no maintenance cost

4 MP / 2 Vision
28 CS (+3)

Can move after attacking - Lost upon upgrade
Skirmisher Doctrine

So, a unique Caravel, with a unique spin of counting double for flanks, which can only be done by ships on the same line (melee). However, Skirmisher Doctrine also gives +50% ranged defense and will break the unit.

In effect, the double flank is just a weaker +10% flanking bonus (unless you somehow gain an Envelopment ranged ship). If you want them to be good at flanking, why not just give them Pincer?

UB1 - Suq (replaces Market) => Same art as Bazaar
Unlocked at Trade
110 Production cost

+3 Gold
+3 Food
+1 Science

Converts 10 % of Gold spent in the City into Food.
+1 Gold / Faith per Follower other than from your main Religion in the City
+1 Gold to Trade Routes coming to / from the City
Land Trade Routes from the City gain 50% range.

+1 Gold / Food to Cinnamon / Sugar worked by the City

1 Merchant specialist

Bonus per follower not following your religion is bad, as seen in old Syncretism performance (it's on the "too strong" side here). The building is also before religions so the ability isn't effective for another era. If you absolutely want a religious ability, you can have either Pagoda's +yields per foreign religion present in the city, or vanilla Arabia/Tetraconch's +100% pressure from trade routes.

Why can't its name stay as Bazaar? They're the same thing and Bazaar is more used in English.

UB2 - Dar al-Shifa (replaces Grocer) => same art as the Bimaristan
Unlocked at Astronomy (instead of Chemistry) => same tech tier, but at the center for more versatility in the tech path
500 Production cost
4 GPT maintenance cost

+1 Happiness
+1 Food per 5 Citizens in the City

25 % of Food is carried over when a new Citizen is born in the City (instead of 15%)
+3 % Science and +1 CS in the City per excess Happiness in the city (caps at +30% Science and +10 CS)

Land Units in this City heal 5 hp per turn whatever their action.
+1 Yield from Specialists in the City

-1 Unhappiness from Poverty in the City

It's a Hospital that doesn't replace the Hospital, so each city will be doing double the Hospital things?

Both the +3% Science and +1 City Strength per Happiness are extremely strong. Coupled with Fealty and +5 heal on the garrison, the garrison can likely stay alive forever unless the city is blockaded, and the city will start 2-shotting Tercio.

I'd take the originally proposed Bimaristan over this version, since that's already fully integrated and is nowhere as broken.

---

Byzantium - Queen of Cities - When you complete a Historic Event, gain +1 Science, Culture and Faith in the Capital. Converting a City to your main Religion for the first time, completing a Trade Route or clearing a Barbarian Encampment triggers a Historic Event.

We've moved from Historic Events generating random GPs to... this. I don't know if you want this Byzantium to be a CV civ, but if you do, both wordings and numbers for these will need to be changed (and will probably result in more than 4 lines of UA).
If you don't intend them to be a CV civ (i.e. those triggers don't actually give Tourism), the ability can be simplified to:

When you complete a Historic Event, destroy a Barbarian Encampment, or convert a City to your Primary Religion for the first time, gain +1 Science, Culture, and Faith in Capital.

This makes it still a tutorial civ for Historic Events, while your focus is on big Capital yields instead of CV.

Leader flavors/personalities need to be reworked, and they should have a coastal bias.

UU1 - Cataphract (replaces Knight)
Unlocked at Chivalry
175 Production / 300 Faith cost
Requires Horse
Mounted Unit

3 MP / 2 Vision (-1 / 0)
28 CS (+3)

Cover I
Trampling - +15% CS when attacking in open terrain ; when attacking a Unit, inflicts the "Trampled" plague for 2 turns (Receive 3 more damages from all sources) ; lost upon upgrade

No Terrain Defense
Can move after attacking
Attack penalty against Cities

This is much weaker than the current Cataphract which is honestly OP. This should be a more balanced unit, but I have to note that plague placers on a melee unit also apply when the unit is attacked by melee.

UU2 - Dromon (replaces Galleass)
Unlocked at Education (instead of Guilds)
145 Production / 300 Faith (-30 Production / -50 Faith)

4 MP / 2 Vision
14 CS / 22 RCS / 1 Range (0 / -2 / 0)

Sea Fire - Reduces the Combat Strength of rival adjacent Units by 15% ; lost upon upgrade
Splash Damage I
Splash Damage II
Can move after attacking

Attack malus against Land Units
Cannot Melee Attack
Shallow Draft

I'm not going to repeat the problem of earlier unlocks. It also fits more as a Liburna, if only because it's its only replacement unit, and the civ already has a coastal bias anyway.

UB - Tetraconch (replaces Temple)
Unlocked at Philosophy
200 Production cost
1 GPT maintenance cost

+3 Faith +1 per 5 Citizens in the City

+25% Religious Pressure from the City and +100% Pressure towards Cities connected by a Trade Route
-1 Unhappiness from Religious Unrest
+25 HP per Great Work in the City

+1 Culture / Gold from Incense / Wine / Amber

1 GWMusic slot
1 Musician specialist
+1 Great Musician point per turn to the Capital if the City works at least one Specialist (max. : 12 GMusician points per turn)

I guess this should be the one kept for the 2UC mod?

Where should I start? This gives waaaaay more than the current version.

• The musician specialist niche is already done by Ceilidh Hall. A musician slot, 5 more turns of WLTKD and flat yields are all it does. A UB really doesn't need so many different abilities.
• Removable +HP will never work. To have any effect at all, the Great Works will have to stay in the city until it reaches 0, but then you'll be losing all of them. (125/500HP with 5 GW = 0/375HP with 0 GW)
• The +100% pressure should be moved to Bazaar/Suq.
• Which leaves the Great Musician points. Symbolism gives 5 GAP and 14 GPP in total to the capital as an enhancer belief. This gives 12 GPP as part of a unique component. Is this too much? We could try it.
• It's currently maintenance free. Are you removing that?

The staying bonuses should be faith per population, Great Musician points in the capital, and maybe some flat yields/maintenance free.

UI - Aplekton (replaces Fort) => from DuskJockey's Byzantium
[IMG width="150px" alt="Aplekton_ImprovementIcon256.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/aplekton_improvementicon256-png.695335/[/IMG]
Unlocked at Engineering
Cannot be built adjacent to another Aplekton
Reveals tiles within 3 tiles (can be blocked by rough terrain)
+50% CS to defending Units

+1 Food
+1 Production
+2 Border Growth points
Gain the same yields if adjacent to a City and / or is on the path of a Trade Route (potential base yields : 3 Food / 3 Production / 6 Border Growth points)

Aplekton and your owned tiles adjacent to them cannot be claimed by rival culture bombs (no protection if pillaged)

Receives the same bonus yields from techs and policies as the Fort (and 1.5 the yields from the Military-Industrial Complexe Autocracy Tenet, since it is both a Fort and a unique improvement)

3 3 6 BGP is still too low. Tech/policy bonuses will also eventually drown out the low adjacency/trade route bonuses (which is why Village's trade route bonus needs to evolve at Industrial).

Bonus for city adjacency is weird for a fort, and it's not high enough to make you work it over resource tiles. I'd just make it "a fort that has more normal yields".

Aplekton ("replaces" Fort)
Unlocked at Engineering
Must not be adjacent to another Aplekton

+3 +3 +1 +1 BGP
Provides vision within a 2-tile radius (I think 3 is too much)
+50% tile defense
Blocks owned tiles within a 1-tile radius from being stolen by citadels (can you still buy the tiles as America?)

Chemistry: +2
Military Science: +1 +1 +2 BGP
Stealth: +4
Electronics: +2 +2 +4 BGP

Colonialism: +2 +1

Usual tenet boosts

PillageGold: 14 (same as Encampment)

---

Overall, this makes an extra religious civ, which I don't like. I'd keep the faith bonuses on Byzantium as low as possible, but it seems the UA alone pretty much guarantees founding.

 

[Hinin]

Thanks for the detailed review @azum4roll.

This is just the current Byzantine UA. Its versatile nature means it should have no start bias, and receive the current personalities/flavors from Theodora.

I think so too.

he problem of early/alternate unlock is that the previous unit hasn't been obsoleted.

It is the problem of all early unlocks, and tbh it has never been a bother in practice. That's just how the code works.

The faith cost essentially doesn't matter, since you would always purchase Skirmishers and upgrade them into Guzat (at a cheaper cost and requiring a temporary horse).

The faith cost decrease simply corresponds to the tech tier and happens for all early unlock UUs. It was never meant to occupy design space for the unit.

17/15 stat in late classical makes them the strongest unit in both CS and RCS. It's slightly more expensive than a Swordsman (if produced as a Skirmisher and upgraded via gold), but can retreat from one and face tank a second one. I don't think anything can beat them as is.

I agree that, if implemented, we should keep an eye on the combat performance unit. That said, other early unlocked units have had much more potent combat bonuses in the past (see Berserker), so I'm not very worried in this specific case.

However, Skirmisher Doctrine also gives +50% ranged defense and will break the unit.

It was intended within the unit kit. To me, it should be an important but not gamebreaking element.

In effect, the double flank is just a weaker +10% flanking bonus (unless you somehow gain an Envelopment ranged ship). If you want them to be good at flanking, why not just give them Pincer?

Because "Ignore ZOC" isn't the goal (and it is already present in other kits of naval civs).

Bonus per follower not following your religion is bad, as seen in old Syncretism performance (it's on the "too strong" side here). The building is also before religions so the ability isn't effective for another era. If you absolutely want a religious ability, you can have either Pagoda's +yields per foreign religion present in the city, or vanilla Arabia/Tetraconch's +100% pressure from trade routes.

I'll remove the religion part of Byzantium anyway, so yes the pressure from TR can go to the Suq.

Why can't its name stay as Bazaar? They're the same thing and Bazaar is more used in English.

Because Bazaar is more Iranian than Persian, contrary to Suq (which has Aramean origins, but is much more present in Arabian vocabulary and expressions).

It's a Hospital that doesn't replace the Hospital, so each city will be doing double the Hospital things?

It has a similar effect to the hospital, but weaker. In the end, Arabia will have 1.5 hospital power in the endgame, which is fine I think.

Both the +3% Science and +1 City Strength per Happiness are extremely strong. Coupled with Fealty and +5 heal on the garrison, the garrison can likely stay alive forever unless the city is blockaded, and the city will start 2-shotting Tercio.

I think the effect should be limited to 15% Science and +5 CS at a maximum.

This is much weaker than the current Cataphract which is honestly OP. This should be a more balanced unit, but I have to note that plague placers on a melee unit also apply when the unit is attacked by melee.

Noted. Thanks.

I'm not going to repeat the problem of earlier unlocks. It also fits more as a Liburna, if only because it's its only replacement unit, and the civ already has a coastal bias anyway.

I agree. It will also unstack Byzantine UUs from the same tech tier.

I guess this should be the one kept for the 2UC mod?

Where should I start? This gives waaaaay more than the current version.

• The musician specialist niche is already done by Ceilidh Hall. A musician slot, 5 more turns of WLTKD and flat yields are all it does. A UB really doesn't need so many different abilities.
• Removable +HP will never work. To have any effect at all, the Great Works will have to stay in the city until it reaches 0, but then you'll be losing all of them. (125/500HP with 5 GW = 0/375HP with 0 GW)
• The +100% pressure should be moved to Bazaar/Suq.
• Which leaves the Great Musician points. Symbolism gives 5 GAP and 14 GPP in total to the capital as an enhancer belief. This gives 12 GPP as part of a unique component. Is this too much? We could try it.
• It's currently maintenance free. Are you removing that?

The staying bonuses should be faith per population, Great Musician points in the capital, and maybe some flat yields/maintenance free.

I'm removing the building anyway. I do think Byzantium can without religion bonus altogether (or at least without bonus to founding).

3 3 6 BGP is still too low. Tech/policy bonuses will also eventually drown out the low adjacency/trade route bonuses (which is why Village's trade route bonus needs to evolve at Industrial).

Bonus for city adjacency is weird for a fort, and it's not high enough to make you work it over resource tiles. I'd just make it "a fort that has more normal yields".

Aplekton ("replaces" Fort)
Unlocked at Engineering
Must not be adjacent to another Aplekton

+3 +3 +1 +1 BGP
Provides vision within a 2-tile radius (I think 3 is too much)
+50% tile defense
Blocks owned tiles within a 1-tile radius from being stolen by citadels (can you still buy the tiles as America?)

Chemistry: +2
Military Science: +1 +1 +2 BGP
Stealth: +4
Electronics: +2 +2 +4 BGP

Colonialism: +2 +1

Usual tenet boosts

PillageGold: 14 (same as Encampment)

The UI could use additionnal tech bonuses, I agree.

It should also block America buyout I think.

Rework of some elements incoming.

 

[pineappledan]

I really really don’t like Byzantium having a deep sea unit 1 tech early. I don’t think early galleass unlocks should exist. Even if it is slow, at half move in deep ocean, it can still do things other civs at the same tech level can’t. I have an early unlock caravel proposed for Denmark and while that is bad too, at least it makes more sense.

The liburna replacement that is currently proposed avoids deep ocean exploration shenanigans and is 1 less early unlock, which are best avoided in general anyways.

 

[Hinin]

I really really don’t like Byzantium having a deep sea unit 1 tech early. I don’t think early galleass unlocks should exist. Even if it is slow, at half move in deep ocean, it can still do things other civs at the same tech level can’t. I have an early unlock caravel proposed for Denmark and I hate that too, but at least it makes more sense.

Simply forgot to put the Liburna anti ocean promotion. Normally, if a promotion is removed from a unique unit compared to the base unit, I still put it, but striken-through.

Edit : Fixed

 

[Hinin]

Edit 2 : Replaced Faith with Gold in the Byzantine UA. Replaced Splash Damage I & II by a plague effect for the Dromon that increases flat damages received for afflicted enemies. Replaced the GP effect of the Hippodrome by a converter of Culture into Food (allowing the Byzantine capital to sustain itself from its cultural fame alone if used well). Changed Baghlah's free promotion from Skirmisher Doctrine to Pincer and reduced its base CS to compensate (ignore ZOC + movement after attack can be vicious) based on @azum4roll's review.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.