(8-WD) Celts - Kit Rework

[Hinin]

Current : See pineappledan's original 4UC Celts thread for the current complete kit.

Proposal : This proposal can clearly be separated into three parts : one with the UA and the UB, one with the two UUs and the third with the Oppidum name change (it's just flavor, no gameplay change here). That said, changing the military part without changeing the UA + UB would break the civ's kit, so I would advise against it.

Leader Flavors : Reduce "Religion" flavor from 6 to 2.

UA - Druidism

Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs that no one else can benefit from and is always applied instead of the ones from foreign Religions in your Cities. Cannot found a Religion, but converts 25 % of Faith produced in Cities into Culture.

UB – Nemeton (replaces Temple)

Unlocked at Philosophy
200 Production cost
No maintenance cost (instead of 3 GPT)
Doesn’t require a Shrine to be produced

+3 Faith
+3 Food from Great Works in the City
-1 Unhappiness from Religious Unrest
+25 % Religious Pressure from City
Gain Yields depending on Celtic Pantheons (same as the Ceilidh Hall)
Allows the recruitment of Druids in the City

+1 Culture / Gold to worked Incense / Wine / Amber
1 GWMusic slot
1 Musician slot

Druid (unique Civilian UnitClass)

Requires a Nemeton in the City
300 Faith

2 MP / 2 Vision

Kredron - Can be expended to remove all the Religious Followers of a City without producing Unrest. Grants 50 Culture for each Follower removed this way, scaling with Era.

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UGPTI – Dunon (same as Oppidum, but with an endonymic name)

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UU1 – Argoi (replaces Scout) => uses the same arts as the current Pictish Warrior
Unlocked at Calendar (instead of Sailing)
75 Production cost / 100 Faith cost (-15 / -100)

12 CS (+2)
3 MP / 3 Vision

Recon
Heavy Charge

UU2 – Kern (replaces Heavy Skirsmisher)

Unlocked at Physics
175 Production / 300 Faith
Does not requires Horse
Is not Mounted

5 MP / 2 Vision
18 CS / 15 RCS / 1 Range (+1 / +1 / 0)

No Terrain Defense
Attack penalty against Cities
Attack penalty against Ship Units
May not Attack in Melee
Can Move after Attacking
Skirmisher Doctrine – Count double for Flanking in combat not involving this Unit ; +50 % CS when defending against Ranged attacks
Quick Study

Rationale :
- UA + UB : One of the gripes I've had with the design of the Celts is how the civilization does something truly unique, its pantheons, but doesn't dare to go all the way to become a true "pantheon civ", and so uses some alternative ways to allow the uniqueness of the kit to survive despite it all (bonus Faith on all Cities once a Pantheon has been unlocked, the Pictish Warrior giving Faith on kill, the idea of preventing Religious pressure from foreign civs). I am well aware that what I propose isn't perfect either, but I still wanted to present some ideas I've had for a while there (it is the best moment to do so I think).
The main idea is to make the civ an "anti-religion" civ that cannot found a religion, but has the ability to make its pantheon survive despite it all and can transform foreign attempts to impose their religion in Celtic lands into Culture (passively thanks to the UA, actively by using Druids once the Nemeton is unlocked). It also gives the Civilization a unique opportunity to control how Religions can spread in its territory and around through a careful usage of Druids and Missionaries (the civ will have more Faith than most, since it doesn't use it in the Religion Race).

- UUs : The current Pictish warrior is quite weird : it is a core piece of the Celts kit thanks to its ability to grant Faith on kills (which overstep into Aztec territory), and is thus prisonner of the state of the civ's kit. Plus, it is a weird melange of a Swordsman, a Spearman and a Scout (frontline unit without Formation I and bonus movement in Hills and Forests despite the civ not having a terrain bias). What I propose for the Argoi (same art, unitflag and 3d model as the current Pictish Warrior) is to go fully into the direction of a mobile unit with some bonus strength and the ability to change the state of the frontline thanks to daring charges (it requires the unit to have more total CS than the defending unit, so one must play this unit tactically) and allow the civ to finally get some Spearmen. The disparition of the "Faith on kill" bonus is compensated by the kit eliminating the need for the civ to play the Religion Race. For the Kern, I simply wanted something more medieval, easier for the AI to understand (damage on move is tricky, and a core part of the Scythed Chariot's identity) and which provides an interesting dynamic : that of an hybrid between a skirmisher and an infantry unit that would represent well the guerilla tactics used by Celtic peoples in the British Isles during the Medieval and Renaissance Eras. This, and there is great potential synergy between the Kern and the Argoi (doubling flanking allowing for better usage of Heavy Charge, or using Heavy Charge as a way to displace units into Kern range).

- Oppidum is a Roman word, and thus I simply wanted to propose a known Celtic equivalent.

All in all, I wouldn't be disappointed if this proposal were rejected outright, but I do think it is an interesting time to propose more 'daring' changes to parts of the civs we know all love. I hope all of this, at least, has been entertaining and may create some new ideas for new kits in the future.

Thanks for reading.

P.S. : I can do the work on the Kern's 3d model if the proposal passes.

 

[Stalker0]

I will say this is a very different approach to the celts, and its an interesting one. Its practically a completely different civ in tone and scope. My notes:

1) Its the first real faith civ that isn't a religion civ either, which is kind of interesting.
2) I don't like the "half direction" in regards to other religions. The Kredron relies on people stupidly converting celt cities (which AIs will dumbly do and humans will smartly avoid). I think either the Celts accept a new religion (and keep their pantheon), or they just cannot have a religion and that's factored into their kit. and I don't think this is a repeat of spain, because unlike Spain this Celts wouldn't be converting other civs to their religion. Its not "I am going to convert you and you can't touch me", its "I won't convert you and you don't convert me, just leave me alone".
3) The two new UUs do absolutely nothing for me. It feels like you had this real cool core concept....and then went "oh dang I have two slots I got to fill"

 

[Hinin]

3) The two new UUs do absolutely nothing for me. It feels like you had this real cool core concept....and then went "oh dang I have two slots I got to fill"

As I said, the proposal can basically be divided into 3 for voting, although the change to the Pictish Warrior relies on the idea that the civ doesn't need Faith boosts to preserve its uniqueness (aka getting its pantheon wiped by missionaries), hence why the changes to UUs kinda relies on the changes to the UA / UB.

All that said, does every component within a kit need to further the same themes in term of gameplay ?

One idea I had, but scrapped a while back because it would require far too much work and would make the civ cumbersome to work on and would take a lot of design space, was to make one of the UUs of the kit dependent on the pantheon (basically, each pantheon would allow one type of unique unit accessible for the Celts).
Ex. : a unique ship unit for the maritime pantheon, a unique elite buffer unit for the golden age pantheon etc.

I don't like the "half direction" in regards to other religions. The Kredron relies on people stupidly converting celt cities (which AIs will dumbly do and humans will smartly avoid). I think either the Celts accept a new religion (and keep their pantheon), or they just cannot have a religion and that's factored into their kit. and I don't think this is a repeat of spain, because unlike Spain this Celts wouldn't be converting other civs to their religion. Its not "I am going to convert you and you can't touch me", its "I won't convert you and you don't convert me, just leave me alone".

I agree my approach isn't ideal. I'm open to ideas on that matter.

 

[hokath]

Very interesting! Initial thoughts:
UA -- The faith->culture can serve as a tuning knob to balance the lack of Religion, that's nice. Reminds me of original LS Tibet a bit.

Being able to adopt a religion, make all their buildings, and then remove everywhere could be quite powerful but not sure how AI friendly. A question there:
Druid -- Is the unit consumed when removing followers? Is there a reason it isn't just an Inquisitor replacement (I don't see why I would ever need an Inquisitor really) I realised why immediately after posting.
Either way, there's a good chance you end up with a boat-load of Faith and nothing to spend it on -- I guess you will just hoard until GP purchase comes online.

Nemeton Tree -- It's giving me Age of Mythology Hesperides Tree God Power, love it. I'm guessing this +food on great works is here because Oppidum/Dunon is implicitly assuming a Great Person focus and you have that Musician slot. I can get behind it. Perhaps you could consider 2 GWM slots and a food theming bonus instead, so that tradition and artistry don't feel too forced? Or both. Both is good.

The Kern -- 5 movement points for an infantry unit (!) seems a bit much. What about 2 movement, current Pictish Warrior promotion, and ignores terrain cost? Quick Study is very strong, is there a reason you see Celts as having some highly promoted Skirmisher-line units? To my way of thinking Kern don't seem like an "elite force" in an historical sense.

Argoi -- Removing faith on kills makes perfect sense here but turning it into the Recon line seems a bit off.. perhaps it's fine I don't have any immediate thoughts other than upgrading into Explorer is a bit sad.

 

[rkkn]

this looks very cool! but since there aren't any bonuses that compensate for not having a religion, it looks far too weak in the scenario where no one spreads religion to you. aka garbo in multiplayer, as noted above

 

[Rekk]

I think either the Celts accept a new religion (and keep their pantheon), or they just cannot have a religion and that's factored into their kit.

I agree that this must be the case:
1. They can welcome a foreign religion into their empire. Not sure this is on-theme.
2. Completely remove the tension from the table by making them unable to have any religion at all (AI still need to be changed to avoid spreading to Celts specifically).
3. They can have tools to fight an encroaching religion. In this case the reward for doing so would be to keep your pantheon. In this way, other players are incentivized to spread their religion to the Celts in order to beat them, instead of disincentivized because they just get more powerful from the doing so.
4. Change the AI so that it never, under any circumstances, spreads to the Celts, and the Celts only remove followers based on passive pressure.

 

[hokath]

You could also do something gamey where you get two cities: one follows a foreign religion and the other doesn't.
You buy a missionary and a druid. You convert the one city with the missionary, then deconvert it with the druid, gaining culture.
Can stop this with "cannot buy missionaries" clause from India.

 

[pineappledan]

So kind of turning the Celts into the Balts from JFD's Lithuania civ:
https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Lithuania_(Gediminas)#Unique_Attributes
I like the idea of a super-pantheon that spends the game focused on NOT having a religion, but the Celts -- especially an incarnation of the Celts patterned largely off of Brittonic and Gaelic -- has weak/bad historicity. The Irish not only adopted Christianity relatively early, they are one of the chief actors who spread Christianity to the rest of Germanic Britain, and had a large impact on mainland Christianity through their delegates to the Frankish court:

Hiberno-Scottish mission - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Unlike Lithuania, one of the last places in Europe to retain a significant pagan population, and an exceptionally conservative, ancient form of Indo-European paganism at that, I can't agree that this is a good fit for the Celts.

That being said I would be quite enthusiastic about adding the Lithuanians as a custom civ.

 

[pineappledan]

Regarding the kern, there is a Janboruta icon for one:

 

[Cebrudras]

I like this new UA, but I kinda feel like it could just stand on its own without reworking civilian components. You don't need the Druid. The Celts can just play a normal non-founder game with the new UA.

Could the Celts get their pantheon in addition to rather than by replacing actual one? Just sounds less complicated.

 

[Pipiskus]

That being said I would be quite enthusiastic about adding the Lithuanians as a custom civ.

You seam to read my mind somehow, only a few days ago i was thinking how cool it would be to see Lithuania in the game and now you say this.
I also believe that this UA fit them much more than Celts. Very exited to see what you would come up with. Good luck!

 

[CppMaster]

That being said I would be quite enthusiastic about adding the Lithuanians as a custom civ

Do you mean to integrate it?

 

[CppMaster]

Leader Flavors : Reduce "Religion" flavor from 6 to 2.

UA - Druidism

Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs that no one else can benefit from and is always applied instead of the ones from foreign Religions in your Cities. Cannot found a Religion, but converts 25 % of Faith produced in Cities into Culture.

UB – Nemeton (replaces Temple)
[IMG alt="Nemeton_BuildingIcon256.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/nemeton_buildingicon256-png.694560/[/IMG]
Unlocked at Philosophy
200 Production cost
No maintenance cost (instead of 3 GPT)
Doesn’t require a Shrine to be produced

+3 Faith
+3 Food from Great Works in the City
-1 Unhappiness from Religious Unrest
+25 % Religious Pressure from City
Gain Yields depending on Celtic Pantheons (same as the Ceilidh Hall)
Allows the recruitment of Druids in the City

+1 Culture / Gold to worked Incense / Wine / Amber
1 GWMusic slot
1 Musician slot

Druid (unique Civilian UnitClass)
[IMG alt="Druid_UnitIcon256.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/druid_uniticon256-png.694570/[/IMG]
Requires a Nemeton in the City
300 Faith

2 MP / 2 Vision

Kredron - Can be expended to remove all the Religious Followers of a City without producing Unrest. Grants 50 Culture for each Follower removed this way, scaling with Era.

I love the uniqueness of it!

 

[Legen]

If the civ isn't going to found a religion, then it's going to have a lot of faith stockpiled and without use for quite some time. You'll want to add a faith sink for this iteration of the Celts, like an alternative faith cost to the Nemeton, the Argoi and/or the Kern.

 

[Chippy Smith]

May I propose your Oppidum name change and this version of your UA as a separate proposal?:

Spoiler Modified Druidism UA :

UA - Druidism

Has a unique set of Pantheon Beliefs that no one else can benefit from and is always applied instead of the ones from foreign Religions in your Cities. Cannot found a Religion, but converts 33% of Faith produced in Cities into Culture, and 33% of Faith Purchases in Cities into Production.

The increase to 33% from 25% for -> is to compensate for the absence of the Druid. Without the Druid controlling religious spread and providing instant yields, this UA would be strictly worse overall than the current UA, which allows founding. I personally feel like the Druid would be frustrating to play against, so the above is an attempt to make your UA work without requiring your unique buildings/units. Further increasing the rate to 50% may make sense too.

The AI test games show that obtaining a Reformation Belief is highly correlated to obtaining victory. While this may be circumstantial (more to do with being in position to achieve the requirements to Reform rather than the strength of Reformation Beliefs themselves), without the ability to found a religion the Celts would have to conquer a Holy City to benefit from Reformation Beliefs. I feel like giving the Celts a strong reward on Faith Purchasing, which they have to go out of their way to do without a religion and won't happen often, would be a way to compensate for them not having access to Reformation Beliefs innately. Lazily giving them half of Defender of the Faith as a UA could work too, but that seems uninteresting to me.

I tried to match the wording of the Follower Beliefs which reward Faith Purchases. I apologize if the wording isn't clear. I considered giving an amount of instead of , but many Civs have bonuses to Golden Ages in their UA already. The reward for Faith Purchasing should be large and focused generally, which is why I picked . I think turning Purchased Great People into a large amount of would be more preferred than say or; it shouldn't be stronger than a Reformation Belief, but it shouldn't be too much weaker either. The % could be tweaked accordingly in order to achieve this goal, especially considering that it would be a active from the start, unlike Reformation Beliefs.

 

[Autoraem]

I can't help but think the AI will struggle with using druids, but otherwise, very cool idea

 

[invar]

The faith engine on pantheon instead of religion sounds really fun, but it means the bonuses would need to make up for purposely not pursuing a religion. Which means they'd have to be really dank bonuses on Nemeton.

It's also an awkward slide away from the bottom of the tech tree without the spearmen > baths focus for GP points they already have. Getting the bonus faith on kill on scout sounds nice but it's kinda late in their kit, and boy is that a BUFF to scouts.

I do really like the Kern in place of the current scythed chariot, and the change to Druidism though.

 

[Hinin]

@Recursive @hokath @Stalker0 @ichris22 I would like for my proposal to be removed. I do not think it is worthy in its current form, and I do not have enough time to rework it in a good manner. I will repost this proposal another time.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.