80% science stupid?

[Zombie69]

Of course, since you did it 1 every 6 turns! That's not 20%! 20% is 1 every 5 turns. Do that with 100 and you'll get the same amount. Do that with a less perfect number (anything that's not a multiple of 20), and you'll get more gold from the binary science rate.

 

[Willem]

On the second point, that just seems wrong to me. The reason is the bonus is percentage based and not additive.

Your operating under a mistaken assumption then, the bonuses stack with each building you add. So if you have a city producing 10 commerce, having a Market, Bank and Grocer will combine to give you a 100% increase over your base amount, or 20 gold total. I've checked this in world builder, that's how it works.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

the easiest way to decide this is to take a middle age game and actually do it for 5 turns or something--carefully adding up the totals then reloading. It might reveal some hidden factors.

 

[Willem]

Of course, since you did it 1 every 6 turns! That's not 20%! 20% is 1 every 5 turns. Do that with 100 and you'll get the same amount. Do that with a less perfect number (anything that's not a multiple of 20), and you'll get more gold from the binary science rate.

But that's what you're suggesting, run 0% research for 1 turn and 100% research for 5. That gives you the 200 gold figure, whereas going with 80% research for those same 6 turns will earn you 240 gold. Do the math, if I can figure it out, surely you can. Your system is a losing proposition, and a lot of trouble to implement to boot.

 

[Willem]

the easiest way to decide this is to take a middle age game and actually do it for 5 turns or something--carefully adding up the totals then reloading. It might reveal some hidden factors.

I don't need to try it, the numbers I get from the calculator speak for themselves. I'll try to spell it out for you:

Your system with base city commerce of 100:

Turn 1 - 100 commerce + 100% building bonus = 200 gold
Turn 2 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 3 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 4 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 5 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 6 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Total = 200 gold

My system, 80% research:

Turn 1 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 2 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 3 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 4 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 5 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 6 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Total = 240 gold

 

[Zombie69]

NO! I'M FRICKEN SUGGESTING DOING 0% FOR 1 TURN AND 100% FOR 4 TURNS! WHAT'S SO FRICKEN HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

I'm sorry but stating simple math and still having people not getting it after 4 times explaining it can really get on people's nerves.

 

[Zombie69]

I mean, how can someone not understand the concept that 20% is the same as 1 in 5, not 1 in 6, and still think they're good enough in math to argue about it?

 

[jeremiahrounds]

haha extend your example for 10 turns and 100 turns. And get back to me where your "advantage" comes from...

if you go 10 turns you get 400 gold compared to 200 gold omg 80% is the pwn!

In your example your comparing a 100% to a 120% in total. And if you did it for 10 turns you could succeed in comparing a 100% to 200% in total.

 

[Willem]

NO! I'M FRICKEN SUGGESTING DOING 0% FOR 1 TURN AND 100% FOR 4 TURNS! WHAT'S SO FRICKEN HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

I'm sorry but stating simple math and still having people not getting it after 4 times explaining it can really get on people's nerves.

Right I misunderstood your 1 in 5 part. But still that works out to be exactly the same for alot more work. It hardly seems worth the extra micromanagement. Not to mention that you need to time your changes exactly or you fall behind. Forget once or twice, and you lose in the long run.

 

[Zombie69]

haha extend your example for 10 turns and 100 turns. And get back to me where your "advantage" comes from...

if you go 10 turns you get 400 gold compared to 200 gold omg 80% is the pwn!

I give up, you're hopeless. Someone else please take over and explain to this guy elementary school mathematics, and what 20% means. I'm done trying to teach a fish how to fly.

 

[Zombie69]

Right I misunderstood your 1 in 5 part. But still that works out to be exactly the same for alot more work. It hardly seems worth the extra micromanagement. Not to mention that you need to time your changes exactly or you fall behind. Forget once or twice, and you lose in the long run.

I ALREADY SAID IT WOULD GIVE THE EXACT SAME RESULT! NOW DO WHAT I SAID AND RUN THE NUMBERS WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN 100 BASE SCIENCE. TRY ANYTHING BESIDES A MULTIPLE OF 20 (OR A MULTIPLE OF 10 IF YOU HAVE 50% BONUS RATHER THAN 25%). AND SEE FOR YOURSELF THAT THE BINARY SCIENCE RATE SAVES FRACTIONS. HOW MANY FRICKEN TIMES DO I HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU? ARE YOU EVEN READING MY FRICKEN POSTS? IS YOUR PROBLEM READING COMPREHENSION? DO YOU KNOW WHAT ROUNDING DOWN MEANS?

Yes, i'm at the point where i need to shout now. Stupid morons. I can't take this anymore.

 

[Mutineer]

well, You can win a little bit by manipulating a slider allmost eveyr turn, but it is to mach micromanagment for my taste. And as minimum you probably win 1 beaker turn.

Youy civ will produce 1 beaker/turn even if slider set on 0.
As I sad, I do it when it is warranted, when benefits are mach higher, when I need money.

Example, I can by inprovementsand do not have banks/unies in town yet.

Set research to 0 and buy banks, then buy unies and set research back to sustainable.

I just got infrastructure more efficient way, as I build banks, Markets and Groseries and use them 100% some time befor I = my towns with Unies.

Actially Banks+Mrkets +grosiers are more efficient then Lible + Unies. Observatories come later.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

you quoted the wrong guy zombie. Im the one arguing for 0% and 100%. I was pointing out where his math went wrong. He did this

turn 1: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 2: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 3: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 4: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 5: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 6: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
---
== 240 commerce

Which is just as arbitrary as doing this:
turn 1: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 2: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 3: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 4: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 5: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 6: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 7: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 8: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 9: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
turn 10: 20 commerce + 100% bonus
----
== 400 commerce!

He didnt think through accuractely why he stopped at turn 6. And if he had then he would have seen that he was comparing 100% to 120% in total. Just like in the 10 turn example im comparing 100% to 200% in total.

So anyway you called the wrong guy "fool"

 

[BlueRenner]

Hey Willem.

Your system with base city commerce of 100:

Turn 1 - 100 commerce + 100% building bonus = 200 gold
Turn 2 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 3 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 4 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 5 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Turn 6 - 100 research and 0 commerce = 0 gold
Total = 200 gold

My system, 80% research:

Turn 1 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 2 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 3 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 4 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 5 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Turn 6 - 20 commerce + 100% building bonus = 40 gold
Total = 240 gold

Hate to say it without ranting and exclaimation points, but the above is slightly misleading.

Under the first system, you make 200 gold and 500 beakers over six turns.

Under the other system, you make 240 gold and 480 beakers over six turns.

Given that you have a +100% multiplier on the gold, the beakers+gold totals come out dead even in both categories.

Nothing is being gained or saved here. This is part of the original point I was making -- the slider just pushes commerce around. It doesn't generate it.

- Bill

 

[Zombie69]

you quoted the wrong guy zombie. Im the one arguing for 0% and 100%. I was pointing out where his math went wrong.

He didnt think through accuractely why he stopped at turn 6. And if he had then he would have seen that he was comparing 100% to 120% in total. Just like in the 10 turn example im comparing 100% to 200% in total.

So anyway you called the wrong guy "fool"

Thanks for partially renewing my faith in humanity!

 

[Zombie69]

This is part of the original point I was making -- the slider just pushes commerce around. It doesn't generate it.

It saves fractions. Your example didn't disprove this yet. Try an example where you get no hidden bonus (i.e. your science output is the same as what your advisor says). If you can show me that fractions are added in that case, i'll believe you.

 

[Willem]

He didnt think through accuractely why he stopped at turn 6. And if he had then he would have seen that he was comparing 100% to 120% in total.

That's true but even still, I still don't see the advantage here. You claim flexibility, but what if someone attacks you during the last turn of your research cycle? You're still not going to have any funds for upgrades, and there's no diplomatic option to ask the civ to wait one more turn when you'll have some cash available. And if you ever forget to switch to your commerce cycle for a turn, you're not going to have any surplus to fall back on.

At least with a steady research rate, you have the ability of stashing some gold away for emergencies. One mistake doing it your way and that's all blown. It's alot of work for the marginal benefit of a few gold saved due to the rounding down, if there even is any.

 

[Willem]

It saves fractions.

Big deal. Once every 5 turns you might save a gold or two. It's hardly worth the trouble you need to go through in order to get it.

 

[BlueRenner]

It saves fractions. Your example didn't disprove this yet. Try an example where you get no hidden bonus (i.e. your science output is the same as what your advisor says). If you can show me that fractions are added in that case, i'll believe you.

Uhhh.

You do realize you're asking me to research a tech without actually having a city, right?

- Bil

 

[Zombie69]

At least with a steady research rate, you have the ability of stashing some gold away for emergencies.

You can also do that, even better actually, with the binary science rate. If you like to have, say 100 in treasury, then instead you could have a minimum of 100 in treasury, but on most turns a lot more than that, by simply doing the binary science rate and bringing your science down to 0% when reaching 100 gold rather than when reaching zero. Why don't we do that? Because it's suboptimal and will get you all your techs later than you would otherwise!

You really seem to have a problem with adding up and percentages. It would really do you good to stop arguing mindlessly and start listening to people who can actually do elementary school math. This may seem rude but i think it's a lot more rude to waste people's time like you're doing.