[Vote] (9-01) Ethiopia Tweaks

[hokath]

Motivation:
Ethiopia is a really interesting Progress Civ that can perform some unique tech plays with their UA, catapulting to unusually fast unlock times if planned correctly.
Managing your Faith, Culture, and Science rates early to ensure the slingshot lines up correctly is very satisfying "skill expression" unique to Ethiopia.

They can also generate more Faith than most other Civs, which unlocks some strategies that are otherwise quite hard to pull off.

I have two problems that I think once addressed will solidify the design and create a really polished Civ.

1.
The Monolithic Church has no Techs that increase its yields, instead having a unique system of policy and religion triggers instead -- this works really nicely with the UA because it gives you more freedom than you would have if there was an important yield boost at, say, Chemistry, which would fix your tech path.
However, the bonuses are a bit strange because the Church unlocks at Theology. By then, you will have almost certainly have:
Founded a Pantheon, Founded a Religion, Finished an Ancient Tree
with the Enhance and Reform triggers probably not too far off!
It is in principle possible to get to Theology a bit faster by using your UA, but I feel this a) doesn't compete with other options and b) goes against the spirit of the UA having this flexibility.
If the Church unlocked earlier, you would get to actually see the yields increase with the triggers.
You could also make them before other improvements have occupied their tiles, reducing some awkwardness with choosing where to improve (knowing Worker turns might be being wasted)
This would make Ethiopia feel more complete and natural to play.

2.
The Stele is a Monument replacement that lets you delay the Shrine (or double up on early Faith!)
It also has a weird +25% Faith during Golden Ages, which is good for the kit but strange on a Monument. Most of the power of this effect comes later in the game.
Logically, it should be on the UA since there are basically no situations you get a Golden Age and a City (generating any amount of Faith) doesn't already have a Monument!
Without this effect the Stele looks a bit anemic. To round it out, I experimented with several bonuses and arrived GAP from Tech unlock. This gives you some source of GAP to activate that UA that otherwise you are waiting a long time to see.
This also introduces an element of wide scaling that has also been introduced by having a UI, and has synergy with certain Religious Beliefs, creating more "hooks" to interact with in choosing how to play your version of Ethiopia.
(overall, this is a straightforward buff)

---

Proposal:

• Monolithic Church changed as follows
  • Unlocks at Mining (was Theology)
  • 600 build time (from 900)
  • +1 Production and +1 Faith
    Delayed to Founding
  • +2 Culture (from +1) for every Ancient Era policy tree completed
  • +2 Science (from +1 Faith) for every Medieval Era policy tree completed
  • +2 Faith (from +1 Science) for every Industrial Era policy tree completed
  • +2 Gold for adopting an Ideology
  • +1 Faith for every Pantheon belief
  • +1 Production +1 Culture for every Founder belief
    Culture moved to the Ancient completion
  • +1 Production for every Follower belief
  • +1 Culture for every Enhancer belief
  • +1 Gold for Reformation belief
• +25% Faith during Golden Ages moved from the UB to the UA
• UB generates 5 Golden Age Points when you unlock a Tech, scaling with Era.
  Tested at 10 and that was too high.

---

Implementation Notes:
This uses only existing database code.
Can be played here.

 

[pineappledan]

Woah, what's the justification for moving the UI from medieval to ancient? This departs radically from the real history the component reflects and frontloads all of Ethiopia's econ components onto the 1st tech line, so Ethiopia can unlock everything in 1 tech. My Sumer mod has more econ progression than this.

This cure is worse than the disease, imo.

 

[hokath]

The idea is that rock-hewn architecture, as wikipedia labels it, is something that only requires Ancient Era technology. E.g. Petra, Abu Simbel, etc.
If you want a headcannon, you can think that the real life churches were built after the Enhancing of the Religion. At this point, the yields justified the worker time. This not really how I think about it (because this game is alternative history) but if you are concerned about RP then there is a possible explanation.
I chose Mining so you immediately have the choice between the Church and the Mine. 1 Prod or 1 Faith. This felt simplest. It could also be at Construction or, at the latest, Construction. Then you won't see the Pantheon upgrade so it goes against the logic a bit.
Because the yields are very low, the fact it is unlocked doesn't mean you are necessarily in a rush to make it. The nice thing about a UI is that it remains an active thing throughout the early and midgame.

tl;dr yes, the point is to take tech out of the equation so you are completely free to choose your own path with the UA

 

[Gizmoman]

I don't like the idea of having both of Ethiopias civilian unique components unlocking at the same techlevel.
If the steele stays the mono-church should not unlock before late classical at earliest.

 

[pineappledan]

The retroactive yields for pantheon/founder/follower and ancient policy tree could just be added to the base yield of the mono church at the medieval unlock. This would entirely address your issue with retroactive yields progression without harming the roleplay/historicity of the component.

 

[hokath]

You could certainly do that. It would be an almost completely positive aesthetic change imo.

But after going through all the effort of inventing this alternative to Tech yield increases -- not to mention implementing it in the DLL using the new tools of the accomplishments table -- why not use it to do the one thing that really makes it different? The ability to give flexibility to the tech path.
Normally I would agree with the sentiment that

I don't like the idea of having both of Ethiopias civilian unique components unlocking at the same techlevel.

because yes, it's way more interesting to have things spread out that you plan a route through! That makes every game different.

But here the whole thing is to turn that on its head and say, imagine you don't have any particular tech constraints. Here's a UA with a crazy effect: what cool strategies can you pull off with it?

 

[pineappledan]

But after going through all the effort of inventing this alternative to Tech yield increases -- not to mention implementing it in the DLL using the new tools of the accomplishments table -- why not use it to do the one thing that really makes it different? The ability to give flexibility to the tech path

It’s still perfectly intact if it unlocks at medieval, while also being properly respectful of the real history of Ethiopia.

Re: the UA and stele change, I’m lukewarm. The thing that sticks out to me is how similar that would make Ethiopia and Korea, who would both now have % yield modifiers during golden age directly in their UAs. Thats arguably already the case, and putting it on the stele is just an obfuscation, but I would sooner look for an entirely different bonus for the stele.

GAPs on tech kinda makes stele look like a dollar store national monument (GAPs on policy unlock), but that might be a selling point depending on your perspective.

 

[hokath]

It’s still perfectly intact

I don't understand?
If it unlocks at Theology then you have a strong incentive to tech asap to Theology.
I want to remove that constraint.
That's all.

 

[pineappledan]

You were talking about the backend ability implementation, which would still work perfectly fine if it were implemented on post-classical beliefs/policies.

I don’t consider relieving a civ of tech priorities interesting in the least. If you feel like you want a top tech or bottom tech civ then you can pick that in the civ select screen. If you want a civ that basically has zero tech priorities you arguably have civs like Shoshone and Mongols already, and their lack of interaction with the tech tree is one of the least interesting things about them. And it certainly isn’t worth the hit to historicity/rp.

 

[redrum68]

Would there be much of a difference between these 2 options?
- UB generates 5 Golden Age Points when you unlock a Tech, scaling with Era.
- UB generates 0.5 Golden Age Points, scaling with Era.

Essentially aren't you pretty much always gonna be unlocking techs at a fairly consistent rate (every 5-10 turns)?

 

[hokath]

Practically they would normally turn out similar, yes. In theory, the first increases the value of science more than the other.
In the early game, for Ethiopia, you unlock techs at an accelerated rate (roughly 4 free techs at turn 100), so you get more triggers toward the first golden age.
The ability to have building yields scale with era didn't use to be possible, but I think it is in 5.0.

 

[redrum68]

Practically they would normally turn out similar, yes. In theory, the first increases the value of science more than the other.
In the early game, for Ethiopia, you unlock techs at an accelerated rate (roughly 4 free techs at turn 100), so you get more triggers toward the first golden age.
The ability to have building yields scale with era didn't use to be possible, but I think it is in 5.0.

Yeah I'm just wondering if they end up about the same then maybe the direct yield is just simpler especially since you are essentially getting the free techs regardless.

 

[FPXI]

While I'm overwhelmingly in favor of more Civs doing more different stuff--literally one of the best changes you could make--I also share all the concerns given thus far. Opposed.

 

[stormfallen]

To clarify because I'm finding this proposal very hard to read, the new Monolithic Church is as follows, correct?

• Unlocks at Mining
• 600 build time
• +1 Production and +1 Faith
• +2 Culture for every Ancient Era policy tree completed
• +2 Science for every Medieval Era policy tree completed
• +2 Faith for every Industrial Era policy tree completed
• +2 Gold for adopting an Ideology
• +1 Faith for every Pantheon belief
• +1 Culture for every Founder belief
• +1 Production for every Follower belief
• +1 Culture for every Enhancer belief
• +1 Gold for Reformation belief

 

[hokath]

That's what I had written, yeah.
In the 'pedia it doesn't explicitly describe the Follower part, rather lumping them in with Founding and Enhancing, that is perhaps a little confusing.
But, actually, we are missing a production that should be on the Founder (in place of the Culture, moved from the base yields)

I will copy your summary to the OP rather than this changelog style.

 

[stormfallen]

That's what I had written, yeah.
In the 'pedia it doesn't explicitly describe the Follower part, rather lumping them in with Founding and Enhancing, that is perhaps a little confusing.
But, actually, we are missing a production that should be on the Founder (in place of the Culture, moved from the base yields)

I will copy your summary to the OP rather than this changelog style.

The pedia entry is actually missing the Founding culture entirely.

 

[hokath]

Wires got crossed somewhere, the Reformation is only 1 Gold, will have to update text

INSERT INTO Improvement_AccomplishmentYieldChanges
    (ImprovementType, AccomplishmentType, YieldType, Yield)
VALUES
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_POLICY_BRANCH_ANCIENT', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 1),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_POLICY_BRANCH_MEDIEVAL', 'YIELD_FAITH', 1),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_POLICY_BRANCH_INDUSTRIAL', 'YIELD_SCIENCE', 1),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_CHOOSE_IDEOLOGY', 'YIELD_GOLD', 2),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_BELIEF_PANTHEON', 'YIELD_FAITH', 1),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_BELIEF_FOUNDER', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 1),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_BELIEF_FOLLOWER', 'YIELD_PRODUCTION', 1),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_BELIEF_ENHANCER', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 1),
    ('IMPROVEMENT_MONOLITHIC_CHURCH', 'ACCOMPLISHMENT_BELIEF_REFORMATION', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1);

 

[hokath]

I sponsor this

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.